Composer Kevin Kiner created music for more than 25 episodes of SG-1. We are thrilled to have him on to discuss some of them, along with touching on his career in Star Wars, Narcos and CSI!

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TRANSCRIPT
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David Read:
Welcome everyone to Dial the Gate: The Stargate Oral History Project. My name is David Read, I appreciate you being here with me for this one. I would probably be watching as an audience member for almost all of these, but this one I would be in the front row because the seats are all filled in the back and I’d be doing this right now for this one. Kevin Kiner, composer, Stargate SG-1.

Kevin Kiner:
Hello.

David Read:
Welcome, sir. It’s so good to see you. How are you?

Kevin Kiner:
I’m great. It’s really great to be here. You brought back some wonderful memories.

David Read:
This is such a treat for me. It is an embarrassment on me that I have taken this long to invite you on. That is totally my fault. I am Joel-obsessed, as were you. I’d like to start there, if we could. Joel was your best friend.

Kevin Kiner:
Yes. I would say top three, or something like that, I don’t wanna offend the other two guys. That’s about it in my life, I don’t know if that’s sad or what. I was extremely close with Joel. I talked to Joel three times a week or more. Went to his house all the time, we did sci-fi. We both were composers; we both used the same equipment. When he rebuilt his studio, I really paid a lot of attention to the things he was doing, because he did some cool stuff. Our lives were intertwined for many different reasons. Joel was a genuinely nice, good person. I miss him to this day. I was at his funeral. What can I say?

David Read:
How did you fall into each other’s orbit?

Kevin Kiner:
I got fired. I was doing a show called Super Force and the show was not doing so well and they brought in new showrunners. Those new showrunners had a favorite composer named Joel Goldsmith and they gave me two episodes and then they fired me. I was really angry, obviously. I’d done the theme; I’d done all of Season One and then Season Two comes out and I get fired. I didn’t know Joel at all at that time. I’m like, “Oh, this guy, nepotism, he’s just Jerry’s son. That’s the only reason,” et cetera. I watched the first couple episodes he scored and I’m like, “Well, crap. I deserve to be fired.” I called him up and I said, “Hey,” and I said the whole thing to him, “I was really angry,” et cetera. I’m like, “But you’re amazing and I think you’re doing a better job than I did.” I was sincere in that. Later on, there was an executive. The show was a Viacom first-run syndication show. There was an executive at Viacom who was a fan of my theme that I’d written for it and Joel was not using my theme. Joel got fired like halfway through Season Two. Nobody in the executive suite knew that we knew each other so for Season Three, they tried to use us as bargaining chips to lower our fees, but we were buddies so we didn’t do it. We, on our own, decided to split the show, and told them that we would much prefer to do every other episode. That’s how that wound up. Terrible show. Great music.

David Read:
There it is. But what a story that you were left with.

Kevin Kiner:
Isn’t that cool?

David Read:
And a lifelong friend.

Kevin Kiner:
Since that time. Dennis McCarthy and myself, at the very beginning of Stargate, we were all demoing for Stargate. Joel rightly won that gig on the strength of his beautiful theme and all that stuff. He got called the Conqueror, which was gonna be his big Conan the Barbarian break into A-list movies. He called me up and he’s like, “Hey, you’re the only person on Earth I trust not to steal this show from me. Will you do some episodes?” That’s how I wound up working on Stargate. Just great compliments all the way along and a testament to if you do the right thing, what goes around comes around.

David Read:
That’s correct, exactly. Kevin, this is the best five minutes of my month. Thank you for sharing that story. We’ve been working on a documentary here at Dial the Gate for Joel to celebrate his music and to thread in a few people who were involved. I would love to use that story if you don’t mind.

Kevin Kiner:
Absolutely.

David Read:
Brad, we had him on for that. It’s still unreleased but I asked him about the story. We’re not gonna talk this whole thing about Joel, I do wanna bridge this. I was always curious as to where the show’s end theme came from. He said that was his take on a main title sequence and it was instead put in the ending. I did not know that.

Kevin Kiner:
That’s what got him hired on the show because, like I said, they were considering Dennis McCarthy and myself and Joel, I don’t know if anybody else. We were all involved very early, before the show started airing and before they firmed up a composer. That’s a beautiful end credits, isn’t that fantastic?

David Read:
It is, I already used the word wondrous before and we’ll be using it again later on in this episode. It is spiriting a call to adventure and inviting you to go forth. There was something about that piece, I’m getting goosebumps just freaking saying it. Maybe it’s the AC. The emotion that it stirs up is so ripe for adventure and it’s just perfect. I can’t imagine the end titles being anything else other than that.

Kevin Kiner:
I agree. I would encourage anyone who’s a soundtrack fan to, I don’t know if Kull the Conqueror is released, if that soundtrack is, but that’s a fabulous soundtrack as well. I know he recorded that in Seattle with a big orchestra and had a great time. I think he also did that Stargate end credits in Seattle.

David Read:
Yes, I would suspect so because the “Ark of Truth” and “Continuum” were also recorded in Seattle as well. It does look like it is available.

Kevin Kiner:
All right, cool.

David Read:
OK. We’ll go and check that out.

Kevin Kiner:
Joel Goldsmith, one of the great underappreciated film composers in the history of it.

David Read:
That was a double-edged sword. When you are Jerry’s son, that, I suspect, would get you in through a couple of doors, but also be like, “Which Goldsmith?”

Kevin Kiner:
People start naturally thinking, “Well, he doesn’t really deserve it. Jerry just got him in.” If anything, it was the opposite. Jerry was a cantankerous guy and he did not favor Joel in a way that was unfair ever. You hear in that end credits that the apple doesn’t fall very far from the tree.

David Read:
That’s correct. In so many ways, I prefer Joel’s music to Jerry’s and I love Jerry’s music. Your boys are both composers. Are they both professional composers or is just one?

Kevin Kiner:
It’s actually my oldest son and my youngest daughter.

David Read:
Your daughter?

Kevin Kiner:
My daughter, she’s trans and transitioned several years ago. They both work with me every single day. I’m 67 years old now and I do put in 70-hour weeks every once in a while, but I don’t really care to do that often. They really lighten the load for me and they have fabulous ideas. I’ve talked with Dave Filoni about this at length, that I think the three of us are stronger than when I was just writing for Star Wars. I think there’s more of a wealth of ideas just because there’s three of us.

David Read:
So, you guys share the load together. What a dream process that must be, I can only imagine. This is true because I was trying to parse this out in my research to ask the appropriate questions. As a test case, because I wanted to isolate a specific piece of music that I love from your work and talk about it, which of you composed Sabine’s Theme?

Kevin Kiner:
That’s Sean. I know.

David Read:
It’s a handful of keys and it’s magic.

Kevin Kiner:
Thanks.

David Read:
There’s something about that that is so soulful.

Kevin Kiner:
I sort of have a hand in everything a little bit, especially when it comes to themes and to honing things or whatever. In that case, it’s really more a matter of distilling where the best ideas are. All of us can use sounding boards as composers and that’s what we do with each other all the time. The extent of my involvement is saying, “Yeah, that’s really good.”

David Read:
And let them go. That’s the thing. When did you first fall in love with music? How old were you? Is this a core memory?

Kevin Kiner:
My mom was one of those people who loved to blast music. We had a car that had an eight-track tape player and we would drive up to the beach in this car and she would put in Nancy Sinatra. I don’t know how many times I listened to These Boots Are Made for Walkin’ at 120 decibels driving to the beach, but it was fun as hell. When you hear music really loud sometimes, it gets into you. She just loved to do that. She was responsible for getting me guitar lessons, so, I would say that’s where it started. That’s a really cool, I’ve never told that story before.

David Read:
These Boots Are Made for Walkin’?

Kevin Kiner:
As a serious film composer, that’s usually something…

David Read:
It has to start somewhere though.

Kevin Kiner:
I’m influenced by the early Kurosawa movies and Akira Kurosawa’s music.

David Read:
Oh, God. Kurosawa.

Kevin Kiner:
I forget, what was the name of the guy who scored those, he’s really good. Fumio.

David Read:
Let’s get it for the record here.

Kevin Kiner:
He was also really good.

David Read:
Composer, that would be Masaru Sato.

Kevin Kiner:
I don’t know him.

David Read:
And Fumio Hayasaka, early career and mid-career. I’ll never forget, my folks got a CD player in a car finally in 1993 or whatever. My dad had one CD and it was a Supertramp CD. We listened to that CD on loop from St. Louis to Dallas and Arkansas and back. I could not get that music out of my head, but I also never wanted to hear it again. Those little things that stick with you as a child come into your adulthood and now I have that music wherever I go.

Kevin Kiner:
That’s cool.

David Read:
Even though it’s not in my normal loop of tastes. How did you get Star Wars? What’s the story there?

Kevin Kiner:
It was an audition process. To this day, I’m not sure. I know my agent takes credit for getting my reel to George Lucas, and that might be the truth. This is only a theory, and I’ve talked with Filoni about this too, George was definitely a fan of CSI Miami and the sound of CSI Miami. George is one of these guys that always wants to move forward and doesn’t want to do things he’s done before. We were doing very contemporary electronica. He should have auditioned Jeff Cardoni and myself, ’cause we co-wrote that show, but I had more of the background. I’d done Stargate, I’d done Star Treks, I’d done Wing Commander, I did The Visitor for Dean Devlin. I had a pretty strong background in sci-fi music and space music and stuff like that. I know one of the other guys who auditioned, and he’s an A-lister, and I can’t say who it is, but I’m very proud to have gotten the gig when there’s that caliber of people who were auditioning for Star Wars.

David Read:
It’s a huge body of work and you have a great starting point with John Williams. I can totally understand where George is coming from; he’s always pushing the technology forward. He would want to push the music forward as well, “We’ve done this, you can reference it when there are obviously major themes in orbit of this franchise.”

Kevin Kiner:
They’re the greatest themes ever.

David Read:
The Force gets brought up, of course.

Kevin Kiner:
They’re the greatest themes ever written.

David Read:
That’s the thing.

Kevin Kiner:
Let’s just course correct a little bit here. When he first wanted me to rearrange the Star Wars theme for Clone Wars, and this was maybe the first couple of hours I spent with my new boss. I’m arguing with him that, “No, we shouldn’t do this.” It’s like the Amadeus thing, every note is in its place, every note is proper. I shouldn’t change a thing. With that main title, it was the greatest main title maybe arguably ever written. There’s a bar there.

David Read:
Everyone has to remember, before Clone Wars, there wasn’t really any kind of alternate opening Star Wars theme. I remember the Warner Brothers title coming up in the theater A Long Time Ago, In a Galaxy Far, Far Away, and it cuts to The Clone Wars. I’m thinking to myself, “This is not right, this is very different.” By Season Seven, it was like, “This is Clone Wars.” That was that show’s identity and I can see why Dave was pushing that. That makes total sense.

Kevin Kiner:
George was pushing it, not Dave.

David Read:
George was? OK.

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah. It was George, in that particular instance, in the main title. To this day, that is my least favorite thing I’ve done in the Star Wars universe, is rearrange the main title. I think that I didn’t ruin it and I think that’s the best you could possibly hope for given what the drill was, what George told me to go do. I even threw it out there to other composers and asked them if they had any ideas and I would share credit with them. Nobody came up with anything worth a crap. It’s a really, really tall order. I am super proud of the piece of music that comes right after that, which I call A Galaxy Divided. That’s once the announcer says, “War!” in the old-timey voice and stuff, that one, I’m really proud of.

David Read:
I love most of them, but I really love The Bad Batch.

Kevin Kiner:
A lot of people do.

David Read:
There is something about that. I think I was always fascinated by the clone builders. I’m forgetting their name right now, but you brought that race to life and those few characters just…

Kevin Kiner:
The Kaminoans.

David Read:
That’s it. Those few characters, the Kaminoans, those characters, The clones, it’s a great series. Anyone who loves Star Wars, if they’ve not given the animated shows a chance, particularly Bad Batch, and particularly the last few years of Clone Wars, I would start at the beginning. There’s something really there, man; it’s Star Wars for this generation. We didn’t grow up on that, but it’s for them and it’s theirs and it works.

Kevin Kiner:
Do you know Dee Bradley Baker does all five voices?

David Read:
Yes, sir. Extraordinary.

Kevin Kiner:
He also does Eagly for Peacemaker.

David Read:
Wow. Man.

Kevin Kiner:
He’s the Mel Blanc of our era.

David Read:
That’s wild. That is wild.

Kevin Kiner:
He can just do any fricking thing. I sat next to him at a wrap party dinner and we talked for a very, very long time. I flattered myself that it was sort of the equivalent of Mel Blanc and Carl Stalling hanging out.

David Read:
I wanna talk about one Stargate episode in particular and hang the rest on it. You composed 24 shows. In Season One, the mythology really kicks into high gear in an episode called “The Torment of Tantalus.” I sent this to you a few days ago. It’s got, for obvious reasons, a ’30s, ’40s vibe to it on the Earth side, with the past. Then it goes into orbit with this wondrous motif when we’re handed the keys to the universe.

Kevin Kiner:
The molecules.

David Read:
We get to open up the hood of the civilization with the molecules. Can you talk a little about creating music for Stargate and for that episode?

Kevin Kiner:
I do remember that episode in particular was directed by Jonathan Glassner.

David Read:
Correct.

Kevin Kiner:
He went on to hire me to do Invisible Man, which he was a showrunner on, on the strength of that, which was really a great compliment. It was one of these times when, all of a sudden, you used the word wondrous and it was kind of a fantasy, magical projection of – we’re never quite sure if they’re using them to communicate or if it’s part of their furthering of physical chemistry, or whatever it is. We see all these molecules and atoms floating in the air. What’s the name of the character who’s really enthralled by it?

David Read:
Daniel.

Kevin Kiner:
They’re trying to escape this planet, but Daniel doesn’t want to leave because these are kind of the keys to the universe, or at least keys to an ancient civilization that had knowledge far above ours. So, the concept of that and these things floating in air. I don’t know if I got to see those visuals, I don’t think I did. It’s funny, I had not listened to that music since 1997 and you sent it to me. I watched it yesterday and I’m like, “Oh, man.” There are several cues in the show that I’m not particularly proud of. As is the case, if you talk to any of us, those are always the ones that, for some reason, they play the loudest. The kind of boring throwaway thing is, “Oh, I gotta get through this. I’ll put a clarinet in here” and then, all of a sudden, the clarinet’s the loudest dang thing in the whole show. Fortunately, they played it really loud when we see this wonderful projection of all the chemistry and atoms and things like that floating around. I wish I could tell you what my process was, I really don’t remember. Listening to it yesterday, I was very happy with myself. I’m like, “Wow, I had ideas back then.”

David Read:
You still do. The wellspring of knowledge that that episode represents is not unlike the place where I suspect our brains go as well when we’re pulling at some of this stuff. As I’m sure you can speak to, we sit with a problem and we tug on it for a little bit and then we walk away and we work on something else. While we’re working on something else, the solutions manifest themselves in the ether while we’re not poking at it. Sometimes they don’t, but if we’re fortunate, they do, and then it just pops into our heads and we move forward with it. Is that similar to your process on a lot of your work?

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah. I write really fast and I do my best work when I don’t have time to overthink something.

David Read:
I see.

Kevin Kiner:
I’m just working on Season Two of Ahsoka right now and we have a ton to do. Invariably, when I blast through a cue, I’ll look up at the clock and four hours have gone by. I’m in a different world and the time seems so short, yet it’s four hours and it doesn’t feel like four hours.

David Read:
No, you’re in flow.

Kevin Kiner:
I’ve heard so many different people, from Paul Simon to Elton John to John Williams, talking about where the music comes from, and none of us know. I’ve heard it put that “I don’t really write the music; I just find it.” I think that’s an interesting concept, that this is out there and we’re able to channel some of the beauty that actually exists. Who knows where it comes from, but that was one of those cases. I’ve always been attracted to sci-fi. I’m reading sci-fi right now. In fact, I’m re-reading Project Hail Mary. I read it in 2021 or 2022. I read sci-fi for relaxation. It goes back to Asimov and those kinds of things that I used to read, or Tolkien. I remember finishing Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is not space, but it’s still fantasy and it still evokes the same magic that those molecules do in a way. It’s part of the magic of the universe and the magic of magic and that concept. I remember when I’d finished Lord of the Rings. I don’t really like rereading things that often, so I didn’t reread it, but I just felt so lost. I think I immediately plowed into Sword of Shannara or something like that, because I just wanted more.

David Read:
After Return of the King?

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah, I just wanted more of that world and I was so bummed. Hopefully, that’s why people watch the new animated Star Wars and Mandalorian and Ahsoka and all those things; because you want more Star Wars. That’s why they did so many different Stargates; you become addicted to this and you love this world that’s been created by these visionary people.

David Read:
And the mode of storytelling that it engenders. The reason that I love Stargate so much is, not only ’cause it’s beautiful in all kinds of ways, but there is an optimism to it and a lightness and a whimsy that folks like Richard Dean Anderson convey that give you a spring in your step more often than not after you watch it. You don’t feel like you’ve had a really heavy meal. But also, at the same time, it’s not so light that it’s campy.

Kevin Kiner:
No, and look at “Torment of Tantalus” when you’re talking about this man who’s lost the love of his life, and this woman who was told that her fiancé, which was the love of her life – these people were meant to be together forever and they were torn from each other. How they both dealt with it in different worlds, it’s heavy. Those are heavy concepts, man, and yet it’s packaged in such a way that doesn’t depress you. That’s kind of a sad thing, if you think about it, you’re never really depressed about it. I guess there’s the hope of moving on with our lives and the lessons that are learned and stuff like that. That’s really good writing when you’re not just filling up the page with a bunch of action and spaceships and lightsabers. Dave Filoni talks about this all the time; his stories being about how we all have the ability to either do good or to do bad. We’re put into situations where sometimes we wanna have the end justify the means, where we have to do something bad in order to achieve a good thing. We all know you can’t really give in to that kinda thing. So there’s so much more, but it’s all packaged with lightsabers and space battles and things like that. The same with Stargate, with all this high-tech and you’re on another planet and then you see these magical molecules and everything like that. That’s just good storytelling when you have very, very deep issues that are common to all of humanity. You can still watch that and enjoy it and maybe learn a lesson or at least keep something going in your brain. You reaffirm that, “Oh, these are my beliefs.” That’s one of the wonderful things about fantasy and about sci-fi.

David Read:
And so much about storytelling. Something that is not necessarily palatable, depending on how it’s packaged and served to you, can open up new ideas just by the perspective. There is a wonderful Atlantis episode called “Michael,” and in that episode, we take our greatest enemy and we convert them into a human being so they can’t eat us anymore. The story is simply told from his perspective at the beginning of his amnesia. We are encouraged, automatically therefore, to sympathize from his perspective. “What have we done to this being? Sure we’re at war, sure they eat us… metaphorically, but is that the right thing to do to a sentient species and to a person? How would we feel if we were in that situation?” How sci-fi packages these things up and presents them to us is, as far as I’m concerned, half of the fun in watching it. The composer is the first fan to take it in because you get to interpret the undertones.

Kevin Kiner:
That’s a really good point. A lot of people don’t realize what we go through. I’ve been watching John Williams’ interviews. I just watched him do a spotting session with George Lucas, I think it was for Jedi, I forget which film exactly. Just to describe to your audience, we as composers are given the show in its final edited form. We don’t always have all the special effects slugged in, sometimes there’s temporary effects, and sometimes, like right now in Ahsoka, we have a mixture where some shots are finished and some, I’m still looking at green screens and things like that. To speak to what you just said, we are the first audience. In fact, because I like to do my homework, I like to watch the show the night before or even that morning before I have the spotting session, where we find the actual places where we’re gonna put music and the director describes to me what the music should be conveying. I have directors that don’t want me to see it before and they want to see my reaction because I’m the first audience for them. They want to see if I’m confused by story points and they want to see, “Oh, do I get goosebumps when these things happen?” All that kind of stuff. My job is to take the emotions I am feeling when I watch that episode and put them into musical form so that they are interwoven with what you have on screen and it becomes this emotional experience. Sometimes you really want the music to be subtle and people to not notice the music and it to be a subliminal feeling that you’re given. Other times, you want the music to be in the forefront and to be part of the experience. Wow, Star Wars is one of the greatest examples; that music is not subtle. That music, I always use the Imperial March… that could be ridiculous. I’ve seen interviews with John Williams when he talks about Steven Spielberg’s first reaction to Jaws and John goes to the piano and goes [Jaws Theme]. Spielberg goes, “Are you kidding me?” It is like, “Isn’t that kinda hokey?” It’s such a fine line.

David Read:
Just wait.

Kevin Kiner:
And also, [Imperial March]. I mean, that is very bold.

David Read:
That’s right. Maybe the single greatest piece of classical music of the 20th century perhaps right there.

Kevin Kiner:
Possibly.

David Read:
Gosh. Man.

Kevin Kiner:
That speaks to when you really want the music to be a character. Just as much as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are characters, the music is a character in Star Wars. I would argue it was in “Torment of Tantalus” too. It was molded with those molecules. Even some of the action music I did, well, it’s not really action, but it’s sort of the team is going into action and trying to get home and fix the machine. I did this, and I think it’s a David Arnold lick actually that I use, [hums theme].

David Read:
I think that’s all you.

Kevin Kiner:
Is it?

David Read:
I think that’s all you. It’s very distinct from “Torment of Tantalus.”

Kevin Kiner:
I was trying to remember if that’s me or David.

David Read:
I know exactly what you’re talking about. No, it’s a great little bit. It’s invoking Arnold. It’s invoking the spirit of the adventure that he started so I can understand why you tie those two together.

Kevin Kiner:
Another one of my really good friends, we still are talking and I’m gonna see him in England when we record. He’s really, really a great film composer, great melody guy. That Stargate melody is just to die for.

David Read:
That piece of music – I know we’ve spent a lot of time talking about other people, but it is Stargate. That opening score, and he was in his, I think, in his 20s when he composed it?

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah. He was delivering bread for a bakery somewhere in Liverpool or wherever he lived.

David Read:
It’s diamonds in the rough. You never know where you’re gonna find Aladdin to go into the Cavern of Wonders and pull something out amazing. That piece of music is so haunting, words fail me on it. He’s extraordinary.

Kevin Kiner:
I’ll tell you a great story because I worked with Dean Devlin on The Visitor, David did as well. We went and recorded at Air Lyndhurst where I got to meet George Martin, who’s the fifth Beatle, who founded Air Lyndhurst Studios, and we recorded there. We recorded The Visitor and we also recorded Wing Commander there. Dean Devlin flew over with us to England and we had a bunch of dinners and stuff and he told the story. He and Roland had not heard the Stargate theme yet. They had not heard one single note, which I find unbelievable that you could do this epic sci-fi film and that…

David Read:
It was in the can at this point?

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah. Maybe they were finalizing some special effects, but the film was final edited. It was done. They go to Air Lyndhurst, which is a big old church just like Abbey Road is, and George Martin built this studio out of this old church in England, in Hampstead Heath. They have the London Philharmonic there and they start playing that main title. Dean Devlin told me this, he just broke into tears. He could not stop sobbing because of the relief. If I was the director or the producer and it’s like this epic thing and you’re entrusting this young English kid – which God knows why they did that. I think he did something called the Young Americans that they really liked that score.

David Read:
Man, they must’ve had a huge amount of faith on him.

Kevin Kiner:
You got Roland Emmerich and Dean Devlin sobbing in the control room as the orchestra’s playing one of the great themes ever written for sci-fi, man. It’s pretty cool.

David Read:
That is an enormous leap of faith to go hear it performed live. What if it sucks? How do you back that out? You can’t go in the back and cook up something else like the bread. That ain’t happening.

Kevin Kiner:
This is only my conjecture, but I think him and Roland were really green. They didn’t know. These days, they have to hear mock-ups that are very close to and just as good as the orchestra. You’d never get away with that.

David Read:
We’re spoiled.

Kevin Kiner:
Never, ever these days.

David Read:
Absolutely not. Kevin, I’m sure you’ll relate to this, coming out of the theater with some friends, or people who are not audiophiles, I’m like, “Well, did you think of the score?” “Oh, I wasn’t listening to it.” I hate that sentence like poison. One, it’s not true. It’s in the-

Kevin Kiner:
You were listening whether you knew it or not.

David Read:
That’s right. Two, you’re ignorant of being appreciative of a huge chunk of what you experienced. Whether it’s a quarter, whether it’s half, whether it’s 10%. The reason that those guys teared up is because the clouds parted on a huge chunk of their film that they hoped was there but didn’t know until that moment.

Kevin Kiner:
That piece of music has lived on beyond that film that they made and has become one of the iconic pieces of music in history, really.

David Read:
There’s a reason they bought it for Stargate SG-1. I can’t imagine the millions that they spent on the rights to have Joel fold it in. But man, it’s an extraordinary piece. I know this is pushing, do you have any memories of working with Brad and Jonathan and Rob Cooper, on spotting sessions with them, or is it really all of a piece for you?

Kevin Kiner:
It was a really long time ago. I’ve written so dang much music in my life, but I do remember spotting sessions. They were all over the phone because they were in Vancouver and I’m down here near Los Angeles. We had videotapes back then and we would say, “OK, I’m at time code number one hour, one minute, 30 seconds.”

David Read:
And go.

Kevin Kiner:
“Three, two, one.” We literally, “three, two, one, boom, hit play.” Brad or Jonathan would say, “OK, right here, I want it to get really dark.” Maybe they had a problem with the editing, it’s like, “This didn’t turn out the way we wanted it to so we want it to be a little more uplifting. We want the music to help that because we didn’t quite capture it on the day.” Or, “Just lie low. The performances are working really well, so don’t get in the way.” All those kinds of great insights. Both Brad and Jonathan were really good with that and really good in spotting sessions. Also I, as well as Joel, put money back into that score. They had a pretty good music budget, but it was supposed to be just our fee. There are live musicians on all my Stargate stuff. If you see behind me, I’m in the control room and I have a big live room. I think for Stargate I would use like six violins, three violas, a couple celli. Then I’d do another session with winds, flute and clarinet and oboe and trumpet, trombone, French horn. I would triple track them. I would write, say, three trumpet parts, but I only had one trumpet player because of budgetary constraints. We would rewind it and the trumpet player would play his second trumpet and then we’d rewind it again. He’d listen to his first part and he’d play the third trumpet. We would also triple track the violins and the violas and the celli and I think we got a really big sound that way. We didn’t have to do that. They were perfectly happy to have us deliver it, as we say, out of the box. In those days the box didn’t sound very good and I could have never done that piece with the molecules in the box because there’s flute trills and stuff.

David Read:
The synths just couldn’t duplicate it then.

Kevin Kiner:
I borrow from Debussy and other great classical composers, where they do these flourishes that are evocative of spinning molecules and things like that. You just can’t do that with samples.

David Read:
That’s one of the reasons when Stargate: The Ark of Truth opens, it specifically opens with flute trills, if I’m remembering correctly, or oboe trills, because Joel couldn’t pull that off with the synth tracks. He was like “This is going front and center. We’re doing something different.” That is so cool and I didn’t think about that, but very much so. I can hear the music playing back in my head. I think he used EastWest, if I’m not mistaken, for most of the show. That was it?

Kevin Kiner:
Those were the best samples there were. They would give you a nice foundation and they were great for the sweeping stuff, but for the real phrased things that are exposed, nothing. Even today, there’s nothing that really does it. You can’t really do a lot of the ornamentation. Or if you do it, you have to spend five days with different sample libraries culling through, finding that one little flute part that sounds real and that takes forever.

David Read:
Is it like you’re looking at a jigsaw puzzle and you’re missing a piece? You just can’t finish this and turn it in until you’ve got that piece filled in?

Kevin Kiner:
In a way it is. For sci-fi music, I find that being constrained and not using live orchestra eliminates a lot of the possibilities. John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith were really big on classicism, and I imagine Claude Debussy, or Ravel, or Stravinsky. These guys did stuff that the sample libraries cannot sound good doing. Or Holst’s The Planets – you couldn’t do that with a sample library. Now you’re really limiting the kind of music that you’re able to do, because you don’t want it to sound phony like a Casio or some damn thing. When you do it, you don’t want that.

David Read:
You can only get so much mileage out of one device. I remember when Joel brought in a Dilruba for Stargate Universe and it just opened everything up. You knew exactly how old Destiny was when it came onto the screen. The screeching of that instrument, it just gets into your bones, man, and that was the ship’s identity. Whether you know it or not, we as audience members are intrinsically installing those pieces of information into the vibe that we carry with us when we remember the adventures that we’re on. I’m forgetting the composer’s name right now, but for Project Hail Mary, there’s a very deliberate reason why Ryan Gosling goes [Close Encounters Theme], because the main theme of the film – it’s mi re mi do. It’s in there, so they’re priming us for that.

Kevin Kiner:
That’s Close Encounters, John Williams.

David Read:
That’s exactly right. See, he borrowed from John Williams for that. It ultimately is side-by-side the experience that we carry with the stories that we love. You are, I believe, the first fans to take it in.

Kevin Kiner:
I think it’s really important to be a fan working in this milieu because, again, it has to come from the heart. If you’re just doing it as a gig, that’s fine. We’re all professionals and we’re able to pull a lot of interesting things off. Like I said, I grew up on Ray Bradbury and Isaac Asimov. You wanna talk about great moralists and great storytellers and people, that’s where that all started. There are lessons for us to learn in these fantasy stories. In a way, the fact that it transports you to a different universe that we all know is not real, you get out of your local politics or things that are bothering you, because now we’re in a fantasy world, so the real world doesn’t get in the way of the life lessons that these guys can teach.

David Read:
You paint one guy white on one side and black on the other.

Kevin Kiner:
Oh my God, my favorite episode.

David Read:
That’s right. It goes right over the network’s heads in some cases.

Kevin Kiner:
Did it go over the network’s heads? Did anyone know? Is there a story?

David Read:
I forget what it was, but for the 30th anniversary of Star Trek, I forget who it was who had the quote, but the host who’s on stage at that point says that the message went right over the network’s heads, but the audience knew exactly what they were talking about.

Kevin Kiner:
I know.

David Read:
I’m sure that the networks knew, but they’re getting the point across without the censors striking it. That’s the great thing about it.

Kevin Kiner:
That’s true, because that’s a sensitive subject, isn’t it? Especially back then.

David Read:
Of course. Matt4812 wants to know, when you get a long-term gig like Doom Patrol or Titans, instead of an occasional episode, is there pressure from the people who are running it to make motifs for the show that recur and develop? Or is that generally left up to the composer to decide? Great question, Matt.

Kevin Kiner:
Thank you. I would not ever use the word pressure with those two showrunners. Jeremy, for Doom Patrol, he’s one of the most supportive cats there is. The same in Titans. I would say more so in Titans, there is self-imposed pressure, because all of a sudden, I have Batman on the screen. I have different Robins and then I have Hawk and Dove and all these really cool characters. It’s important to me that I give them themes that are worthy of the mythology and the tradition that Batman represents. That’s a big deal to me.

David Read:
Man. How do you not run headlong toward Danny Elfman? That’s one of my favorite scores of all time. Do you have to just, “Look, I’m gonna put this in a box. I’m gonna set this over here and I’m gonna try not to think about it, because I have to make something new.”

Kevin Kiner:
No, I didn’t. Danny’s one of the greats. He did the definitive Batman theme, if you ask me. I grew up on [60’s Batman Theme].

David Read:
Sure. It’s its own thing. It’s like old Battlestar Galactica to new Battlestar Galactica. What Bear did with that theme, what he was able to do with it, it’s just extraordinary.

Kevin Kiner:
He was an extension of that show because that show was so far and above the original, all due respect to Lorne Greene. That’s another thing I always say. When somebody, a producer or whatever, compliments me on the score, I’m like, “I think you should compliment yourself ’cause I’m just reflecting what you did.”

David Read:
That’s right. You’re holding a mirror in somebody. I don’t think you as an artist could give something to a product that you’re watching if it wasn’t sincerely reflected on there. As audiences, we’d be sitting and going, “This isn’t right. This doesn’t feel right.”

Kevin Kiner:
“This is way prettier than what I’m watching.”

David Read:
It would feel sour. God.

Kevin Kiner:
No, I’ve been part of those kinds of projects before too. I’m just blessed that I got to work on some really, really good projects, where the music has a chance to reflect how good the show is and hopefully live up to how good the show is.

David Read:
Absolutely. Kevin, this has been a treat to share this with you. Lockwatcher, my moderator, and I were fans of Land of the Lost growing up. Wanted to finish on a lighter note; any memory from Land of the Lost?

Kevin Kiner:
I worked with Sid and Marty Krofft for quite some time. I did D.C. Follies and Fred Willard was in that. That was like doing a musical because all these puppets would sing. Doing Land of the Lost was great Saturday-morning entertainment. We had Timothy Bottoms and really good actors and good production. That was a really wholesome, nice show. I’ve done other younger shows like Harold and the Purple Crayon and Stuart Little, those animated shows. It’s really nice to do something that’s really wholesome and not to be jaded, not to wanna be super hip all the time. That’s what I liked about Land of the Lost. My kids were really young and my daughter, who’s my middle child, she was triceratops. She would say, “Daddy, I am Top and you’re T-Rex.” It was just, wow. It was a really fun part of my life because my kids were really young and they could really react to that show.

David Read:
Absolutely. Do I have time for one more quick question?

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah, sure.

David Read:
Saumi Yanthaya Paran wants to know – your favorite, if you could pick one, theme from Star Wars that you and your family have made.

Kevin Kiner:
The Force theme. I feel like the Force theme is actually better than the main title theme in terms of a theme. I don’t wanna say I’m not allowed to use it, because we can use it whenever we want to, but it’s a group decision with Dave Filoni and everybody. It is a spice that is best used extremely sparingly. If there is a magical moment, this only happens about every 10 episodes or something like that in a show, it just gives you chills. It’s, to me, the best theme that John Williams has ever written. You can’t really say that because, you know, Jurassic Park and Indiana Jones and E.T. and Superman. Those are all the greatest themes in the history of film. If I had to pick, and I’m biased because I get to use it all the time, but I really see what that theme does. Man, you plug it in and it’s instant, instant, goosebump-moment magic.

David Read:
No, you definitely wanna use it sparingly. It’s the universe, it’s fate at work when you step back. I think that’s one of the reasons that the Mortis three-parter is still one of my favorites from Clone Wars. You’re in a place that is holy for what it is that you’re watching. This is a wellspring of something. It’s like the light in the island in Lost. The Force, it’s a great piece of music. I love it.

Kevin Kiner:
There’s more of that to come.

David Read:
I can’t wait.

Kevin Kiner:
Woo-hoo.

David Read:
I’m on my way through Season Two of Andor right now.

Kevin Kiner:
That’s cool.

David Read:
Ahsoka, I’m looking forward to diving into it. You and your toy box, I would love to have coffee with you in person one day ’cause I could just pick your brain for hours here from all of your different projects. This has been a real treat, sir. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Kevin Kiner:
Thank you, David. I’ve had a great time. I’ve done a lot of interviews and I answered some questions I’ve never answered before and that’s really cool because that doesn’t happen all the time.

David Read:
Can I level with you right now?

Kevin Kiner:
Yeah.

David Read:
I thought I did terrible.

Kevin Kiner:
No, you’re awesome. No, it’s really good.

David Read:
No, there were gaps and I did not feel like I, personally, was on my A-game for this one. I’m glad that you take that away. I think I’m nervous ’cause music is my love language.

Kevin Kiner:
I told stories that I’ve never told.

David Read:
Kevin, this has been a treat. I hope we cross paths again soon.

Kevin Kiner:
Me too.

David Read:
You take care of yourself and good luck on Ahsoka and stay busy, my friend.

Kevin Kiner:
I am.

David Read:
Be well, sir.

Kevin Kiner:
OK, bye-bye.

David Read:
Bye-bye. That was Kevin Kiner, composer for Stargate SG-1. My name is David Read, you’re watching the Stargate Oral History Project. If you enjoy Stargate and you wanna see more content like this, do me a favor, click that Like button. It does make a difference with the show and will continue to help us grow our audience. Please also consider sharing this video with a Stargate friend and if you wanna get notified about future episodes, click Subscribe. If you click the bell icon, it will notify you the moment a new video drops and you’ll get notifications of any last-minute guest changes. Clips from this episode will be released over the course of the next few weeks on Dial the Gate. That was a real treat and I’ve been such a huge fan of Joel over the years and it’s a true shame that I’ve not had Kevin on before now. I was thrilled that he was able to join us for this one. I put out a very emotional episode or clip earlier this week. I am so thankful to everyone who has responded to my requests over at patreon.com/dialthegate. I’m still trying to organize a way to share everyone visually here because I wanna do it right. It’s not gonna be ready this weekend, but it will be ready by next weekend’s shows. Thank you all who have registered and have joined in helping me continue to make more episodes of Dial the Gate possible. It means a great deal. This Sunday, we have a lot heading your way. Let me pull up the right button here, if I can find it. There we go. We’re gonna be releasing Stargate Worlds Part Three with creative director Christopher Klug. That’s actually gonna be on Sunday. It says coming soon here, I will fix that. I haven’t decided on exactly when on Sunday I’m gonna be releasing that episode, because I’ve been finishing editing it. Earlier this week, we released The Story of Stargate Worlds. Torri Higginson did the narration on a nine-minute piece that shows the arc of the game story that the Stargate Worlds MMORPG would have been. And you can go and check that out now. It’s something that I’m really proud of. Huge thanks to Christopher Klug for making that available. We actually discussed that in that episode. It’s a two-hour discussion with Christopher and it’s like, “Where do I put this?” It was like, “Well, let’s just do its own thing and let Torri just sail.” She did a great job with that. The second piece of that is gonna be the discussion with Christopher this coming Sunday. He’s gonna go into a lot of the Stargate lore and its themes of friendship and sacrifice and how that was gonna fold into the magic that was the Stargate Worlds story, and a little game design and theory and how everything works. So, if you’re a gamer as well, you’ll find it very interesting. We’re gonna be bringing Wormhole X-Tremists back for “Avalon Part One” and “The Siege Part Three” on Sunday the 26th at 1:00 PM Pacific Time. Whoops. Then we will be bringing on Eric Steinberg, who played Natan in Stargate SG-1, at 3:00 PM Pacific Time this coming Sunday. I’m also proud to announce Mario Azzopardi is returning with Michael Greenburg, director and writer/executive producer, respectively, on May the 2nd at 11:00 AM Pacific Time. I’m really excited about that one. We’ve been wanting to have Mario back for a while now. Michael and I were talking and Michael was like, “I would love to talk.” I’m like, “Well, let’s reach out and see if he’s interested,” and he is. Really appreciate you tuning in, this means the world to me that Kevin joined us for this episode. That’s what I’ve got for you guys. My tremendous thanks to Enigma and to Antony for making this episode possible. I also appreciate Lockwatcher for sticking around as well. Thank you for being with us live. My name is David Read for Dial the Gates. I appreciate you watching and I will see you on the other side.