Dial the Gate is privileged to bring together “Harry Maybourne,” “Nirrti” and “Narim” to discuss their careers, their craft and their lives in this intimate round-table setting.

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TRANSCRIPT
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David Read:
Welcome to the Stargate Oral History Project. My name is David Read. We are in our sixth season, and when I started this show, I had no idea it would get to where it is now. I’ve had the privilege of bringing a number of folks on over the years and getting to learn their Stargate stories. There are a few, though, that I have wanted to invite back, because I want us to hear more about them, and I think that there are a number of folks who have interesting stories to tell that are tangential to Stargate and not just completely enveloped by it. Tom McBeath played Harry Maybourne, Jacqueline Samuda played Nirrti, and Garwin Sanford played Narim and Simon Wallace. We are bringing them together for a round-table discussion that we recorded this past December in Vancouver, for a very special hour and a half, a little bit more, to engage them in a new way. And Jacqueline led this discussion, and it was so nice to not be in it. So, this will be the last that you see of me on these round tables. These actors and crew are going to tell the stories themselves. This is a little way of preserving a little bit more of them, and I hope you enjoy watching it as much as we enjoyed filming it.

Jacqueline Samuda:
So, Stargate’s back. It is so exciting. I don’t often go on X anymore, but I went on X and I was tagged in a post, and a big Stargate fan had done this massive celebratory tweet and tagged me in it, and I was thrilled. And so, then I did a little bit of a search and found the very, very cool interview with Brad and Martin, and it was so great. So, then I sent a message to Brad, because some people know Brad and I go back all the way to university. I’ve seen the man in tights. We did theater studies together. So, I sent him a tweet just saying, “This is really great news.” My big question about it still is: “Where is it gonna shoot, and what’s the format going to be? So, I’m kind of excited. What about you? What did you…

Garwin Sanford:
I heard from David Read.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Did you?

Garwin Sanford:
That’s how I found out. So, I checked in. I actually went when it was live. I checked it out when it was being sent out, so it was very cool. Very cool.

Tom McBeath:
Likewise with me, Mr. Read.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Nice.

Tom McBeath:
He’s more excited than I am though.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Now, have you heard anything about where it’s gonna shoot, or anything like that?

Garwin Sanford:
Not another word other than that they’re going ahead. No format. No idea of what the show is. I read, I don’t remember where it was, but they said there would be someone from the original series in it at some point.

Jacqueline Samuda:
To make a bridge of some kind?

Garwin Sanford:
I have no idea. That was all I… But I don’t know where I saw that.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Because you’re kind of in a unique position, Garwin, because you actually did Stargate Atlantis as well as. So, you played different characters.

Garwin Sanford:
The fans didn’t like that.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Oh, really? Is that true?

Garwin Sanford:
It’s true.

Jacqueline Samuda:
They were like, “Wait, we recognize that guy.”

Garwin Sanford:
We got lots of, I’m not sure. There was a lot of reasons why they didn’t continue me. Because, as everybody knows, I was a love interest for Amanda’s character in the first one, and then they brought me back as the husband for Tori. Boyfriend.

Garwin Sanford:
No, no, it was husband originally. Yes. So, the first episode, I’m her husband. I come home, and there’s a message on the television saying, “Hi, honey, I’m leaving,” and I try to call her and it says, “Your recipient is out of range.” “No kidding.” But then they decided that the husband was too much, because she’s away and would be… So, they made it a boyfriend. And then after a few episodes, they realized she couldn’t, I think, she couldn’t have any love interests in space. So, they had an episode where she comes back to Earth. And, of course, it’s where they’re all dying and the aliens are getting what they want. So, she sees me. And then the next episode, she comes home for real, and I tell her, “Sorry, honey. You’ve been gone too long.” And then, I was told that there was a newspaper article that I was dead in a car crash, but then they never showed it. So, I don’t know how that was revealed. But I think… But the fans were writing in, going, “Oh, come on. It’s the same universe. He’s Narim. You didn’t even make him look different.” They were upset. It was a bunch of… So, I think there’s a lot of reasons why my character didn’t continue in the second one.

Jacqueline Samuda:
But at least you had a noble death as Narim?

Garwin Sanford:
What? No, I didn’t die. Not there. It blew up. And they show a big explosion, and then at the very end of the episode, we hear. I’m talking on the radio and then it cuts out. At the 100th anniversary – no — 100 episode party the producer said, “We’re thinking we’re gonna bring you back as a Goa’uld.” And they never did. I wish they had done that. I kept it quiet all through the whole thing while they were still airing ’cause I was hoping… ‘Cause what a great arc for a milquetoast marine to end up as Zipacna. I think it was Zipacna that they were gonna put in me. But anyway…

David Read:
Klorel.

Garwin Sanford:
What was it?

David Read:
Klorel.

Garwin Sanford:
Klorel. David sets us straight.

Jacqueline Samuda:
You stayed in the Stargate SG-1 universe, right?

Tom McBeath:
I wasn’t allowed to audition for the other one. Just because I was… the character was–

Jacqueline Samuda:
Established.

Tom McBeath:
And my limited talent just allowed me to play the one character. And I was in a perfect spot. And I just stayed there.

Jacqueline Samuda:
You had a massive arc. You had a massive character arc.

Tom McBeath:
Well, it was over 13 episodes, but it was over eight seasons, so that was nice.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Was it always a surprise when you came back?

Tom McBeath:
It actually was. Because the first time I was hired was as a military guy, and I’m not a military guy. And I couldn’t understand… I was really nervous about the fact that they had hired me for it and could I actually do it. And then they kept me in. And finally, when I got out of the uniform, then I felt I got comfortable after that.

Garwin Sanford:
I think you underestimate your intimidation factor. The first lead I did in a Canadian feature was a thing called Quarantine.

Tom McBeath:
Mine as well.

Garwin Sanford:
And he was a cop who is very menacing. And there’s one scene in particular. They come running in and they’re roughing me up, and they’re gonna kill me. And he goes, “Oh, wait, wait. Oh, Spencer boy, I didn’t recognize you there.” And he started laughing. Then he says a few very unveiled threats, goes to the door, and just as he leaves, he goes, “See you.” I’ve never forgotten that. That still sticks in my head. I love that piece. That’s what he’s good at. He intimidates, and all of a sudden, he’ll just turn, “See you.”

Tom McBeath:
It was… When I could get the devil into me, that’s when I got comfortable. And I think actually I was still in uniform and it’s… I think it was… which episode? Here, let me look. I can tell you what episode it was. It was in…

David Read:
“Watergate?”

Tom McBeath:
It was probably “Watergate,” where I…

David Read:
They put things inside.

Tom McBeath:
… where I came to talk him into coming with me.

David Read:
That’s “Shades of Gray.”

Tom McBeath:
“Shades of Gray.” OK. And being on his deck with him and trying to talk him into come along.

David Read:
Horiuchi’s thing.

Tom McBeath:
And it… There I got the devil into me, and that’s where I started to get comfortable with the character. But I was always surprised every time the next time I was hired, they added another dimension to him, so he kept really growing.

Garwin Sanford:
But they write… You see, this is the thing about series. They write to you. What you show them inspires the writers. They watch you and go, “Oh, man.”

Jacqueline Samuda:
That triggers something. “Let’s do something with that.”

Garwin Sanford:
And they know you can handle it, so they will then add more and more. As you show that you’re capable of doing it they’re gonna write you, and that’s what I watched with that. Your character did… It was a huge arc for that character.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Speaking of the episode of “Watergate,” wasn’t there an interesting story about corneas?

Tom McBeath:
Yeah.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Have you heard this?

Garwin Sanford:
No. This is all new to me.

Tom McBeath:
When they found me, I had gone over to the Russians. And they found me in the Stargate that was under the ocean, and everyone was frozen. When they brought me up, I was frozen, and they realized it was me. They brought me and they put me on a table. We were at the old expo site in one of the kitchens. And they put me under a table, and they turned on the red lights over top, the ones that keep the meals warm.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes. My God.

Tom McBeath:
The infrared stuff. So, I’m lying there and my eyes are open, and I’m lying there. And we filmed the scene and stuff. And eventually I come to life and some breath comes out, and then everybody starts having to get away from the stuff that’s coming out of my mouth. But later on in the day, my eyes are getting blurry and foggy. And so, I went to see the lady who was ever in charge of the medical stuff, and she put some stuff in my eyes, and they got worse. And they didn’t get really bad, but they stayed, and it was really odd. And it wasn’t till the evening when I was at home lying in bed going, “Oh, I was under those infrared lights with my eyes open.” My eyes were being cooked. And none of them knew it.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Wow. And it’s so risky. Anything with the eyes as an actor… I did a movie once and we… The setting was in a barn, and one of the PAs was sweeping some of the chaff but was interested in what the actors were talking about, so kept sweeping closer and closer to us. And swept chaff in my face. I didn’t know it until that night, and I realized I’ve got a scar in my eye. Now my eye’s fully bloodshot on one side. So, I phoned makeup and I said, “Listen, I think I’m gonna need a little attention in the morning, because my eye’s fully bloodshot.” Next thing I know, executive producer phones me. They’ve got an ophthalmologist to come in after hours for me to go in and have my eye looked at, and it was gonna be OK. It was scratched, and they had to shoot around it. They could only shoot this part of my face. Because you know the risk. Oh, my God. But you recovered OK?

Tom McBeath:
Oh, yeah. No, it came back fine.

Garwin Sanford:
You remember the days when they smoked up the rooms with mineral oil? They don’t do that anymore, but in the early part… We’ve been doing this for 200 years. But they used to smoke it up with mineral oil into the air. And I was in a plane crash movie. I was the pilot. So, they made a bigger tube of this private aircraft, so they had cameras in it, but they smoked it. They tented us off and smoked it up. The first day, I spent the whole day in the tube and I wasn’t much for leaving and going to sit in the chairs ’cause it was a long ways away. So, the next morning, I wake up. I open up my eyes and it’s fog. I’m going, “What?” And I couldn’t see, so I’m going, “What the hell is going on?” I started rubbing my eyes and they sort of slowly started to open up. Then I realized what had happened. I’d been breathing the oil for 12 hours, so it had gone through my sinuses and then out through my tear ducts. I went, “OK.” From then on, every second I wasn’t in the tube filming, I was out somewhere else. Sitting there with the producer, I said, “I think actually I died on the way here in a plane crash and I’m in hell ’cause I’m stuck in a little tube with a bunch of actors. And you’ve smoked it up, it’s hot and uncomfortable.” She actually found it amusing, but it was one, it was one of the most horrible… But it’s amazing. My mother used to say… I used to fly planes. She was always worried every day it was nice out, I would get killed. When I was acting, she thought, “I’m safe.” And I’ve been closer to dying on so many different shows…

Jacqueline Samuda:
So am I.

Garwin Sanford:
… or been hurt or injured on movie sets, than any time it would have been in an airplane.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Yeah, absolutely. We were talking about your character, and you have a costume piece with you.

Tom McBeath:
Oh, that. Yes. I do.

Jacqueline Samuda:
We were talking about Christina McQuarrie, and you were asking about my costume. And did you see the episode “Metamorphosis?” Yes, the last one. Talk about surprises, because I have a story credit on that, and I had pitched the story to Brad Wright. We’d had dinner and I pitched the story and he said, “This is interesting. Let me take it into the room and let’s see what we’re gonna do.” And he says, “Yeah. We’re gonna go forward with it and we’re gonna take some ideas and we’re gonna…” But James Tichenor was upped to write a script, “So, he’s gonna write it, you’re gonna do story, have a story credit.” And then I get the script and I’m so excited, “Here’s my script, my name is on it,” and I read it and I die. And I didn’t write that part. I did not write that part. But for Nirrti, one of the most amazing things was always wardrobe. I still remember the first time, walking into the wardrobe room and seeing a full wardrobe factory from when I worked at the Shaw Festival, and you’d go in and it was great artists doing the most incredible, intricate work. And she showed me the fabric that was going to be used on the bodice piece in the very first episode, and it was crusted in semi-precious stones. And it was just a small piece and she said, “Don’t tell anybody. That they’re actually semi-precious stones.” But she was so amazing. And then my character of course dies in “Metamorphosis,” but then I got to come back in Continuum where a bunch of Goa’ulds come back in whatever form. And they did a muslin mock-up, as they do in theater, too. A full gown, all done in muslin, and it was so gorgeous in the muslin, I asked if I could have it. And she laughed. It was like, “Ha ha ha. No. Absolutely not.” But I would have worn that to a party. Even in just cotton it was so incredible. And I loved seeing your character come back as a king. That was so incredible.

Tom McBeath:
I went to a con in Germany this year. FedCon, I think it was called. And I hadn’t been to one for years and years and years. Probably, I don’t know, 10 or 12 or 15 years. So, I was nervous again, and I didn’t really… I don’t look into stuff and I should more often. I thought it was just a Stargate con, but it was a sci-fi con. So, all the sci-fi shows were there. But I thought there’s one way that the Stargate fans would remember who I was, and that was how I ended up being King Arkhan off on another planet with my wives. So, I thought, “What I’ll do is I’ll make myself the crown that was made for the character.” So, I hunted around town and I found a leather shop and I got the leather, and I got different kinds of leather, and I spent a couple of weeks making the crown that was like the crown that I wore in the show. And I had some good pictures of it, so I mucked around and it’s not… I didn’t sew all this stuff, I just put little black marks on it to make it look like it was… And I didn’t have any gold stuff, so this is just candy wrapper stuff from some chocolate bar on the inside. And the nice tie thing at the back was I managed to get a shot from behind me and it’s pretty much what it looked like. And it looked really good.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It’s amazing. It’s perfect.

Tom McBeath:
So, I had lots of fun doing it and I wore it for about 10 minutes when I was at the con. And the fans all enjoyed it. And nobody wanted to buy it, but I didn’t have it up for sale.

Jacqueline Samuda:
That’s fantastic.

Tom McBeath:
Anyways, I thought I would bring it today just to show off that I can make props from costumes.

Jacqueline Samuda:
The first con that I did was Blackpool, England, and you were talking about being nervous and not knowing were the fans gonna recognize me, and I didn’t even understand what a con really was at this point.

Tom McBeath:
That was the same one I went.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Yeah. Actually, this was a different one. My very first one early, early days, and I was told, “OK, all you’re gonna do, one by one…” I’ve told this story at conventions since, but “you’re, one by one, you’re gonna just cross the stage and say, “Hi, I’m so-and-so and my signing will be tomorrow at such-and-such.”” So, that’s what I understood I was gonna do. I’m in the green room. It’s an absolutely massive airplane hangar, massive. Huge stage. They have a huge Stargate on the stage. And I hear some of the actors go out, and they are hilarious. They’re like standup comics. They’re “da da da da da da ba,” and I’m like, “Oh my god. I’m not prepared. I’m not ready to be funny, I don’t…” And they say, “OK, everyone’s gonna go.” And then he turns to me and he says, “Except you. What you’re gonna do is you’re gonna be backstage and you’re gonna get into a sarcophagus, and in the sarcophagus is a live mic, and we’re gonna push you through the Stargate with a lot of lights and sound effects and smoke. And then the lid of the sarcophagus is gonna pull back with a big sound effect and there’s gonna be two Jaffa standing on each side and they’re gonna help you out of your sarcophagus.” And so, I heard this the night before and I’m like, “Oh my god, I have to buy a new outfit” because I need pants. I have to climb out of a sarcophagus. So, I run out. I buy a suit. I climb into the sarcophagus with this live mic and the fans are going crazy over there and I’m like, “They’re not even gonna know who I am. This is terrifying.” And I… The sarcophagus, they push through the thing. Smoke and music and blah, and the lid comes back and I stand up holding this mic and I say, “I was feeling a little jet lagged, but after being in the sarcophagus, there’s a mini bar in there. I feel quite fresh.” Because the sarcophagus is supposed to renew you. Anyway, and it was… And everyone recognized me, and everybody went bananas. And I’d had no idea that they would recognize Nirrti and it was just… It was such a scream. It was just… What an introduction to the convention world. But we did it. We did a convention anyway.

Garwin Sanford:
I went Blackpool. So, they were supposed to be in London and then getting moved to Blackpool. That was my first one. And I was surprised because I’d only done three episodes. But of course, I guess it was attached to Samantha, Amanda’s character, obviously. Then that was one of the reasons why.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Very important character.

Garwin Sanford:
But it was the same kind of thing. OK, I had no idea what it was, what to expect. And didn’t realize that the fan base was so huge.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It’s so huge. I did a convention once in Australia and it was a sci-fi convention, so it was massive, massive, not just Stargate. Lineups around, the whole thing. And I was upstairs in sort of the area where people are getting ready and What We Do In The Shadows, their movie had just come out and they were all getting in full… like Taika Waititi and Ben Fransham and all these… Getting in full vampire gear. With the makeup and the fangs and everything. And I’m tiptoeing past them, and I’d just seen the movie on the plane, so I was so excited. No, I hadn’t seen the movie yet. And then I realized I needed a pair of scissors to cut something off of… that was dragging on something. And I went through and I met Ben Fransham, who’s in vampire gear, and I said, “I’m just wondering if anyone has a pair of scissors.” And he says, “Yes, here’s a pair of scissors. “And I say, “I’m Jacqueline Samuda with some Stargate.” He goes, “I know who you are,” because he was a Stargate fan. So, it was this incredible. That’s the reach of it.

Garwin Sanford:
Anytime you see anything on Wikipedia or anything that says Garvin Sanford, most known for his role in Stargate, my three episodes.

Tom McBeath:
The first one I had, it was in London and, whoever, whatever guest they had couldn’t make it. And so, I got called up about three days before and said, “Would you like to come and be a surprise guest?”

Jacqueline Samuda:
Surprise.

Tom McBeath:
“And there’s… Amanda’s gonna be there and Michael’s gonna be there, but we’re not even gonna tell them that you’re coming. So, you’ll be in a different hotel and we’ll pick you up once the day has started, once they’ve been introduced and they’re out there.” So, they snuck me into the hotel and then they snuck me on to the next hotel where the convention was and when I walked through the Stargate, I couldn’t believe it. I thought, “This is… These people gotta be really weird. These fan stuff, they gotta be weird.” And I probably stood there for 10 minutes just going, “Thank you. Thank you.” As they clapped and cheered and yelled and screamed. And I don’t know how many episodes I’d done by then, maybe four or five, and I was still the jerk. I wasn’t the fun guy I turned into. And then I got to meet so many of them, and the fella that ran that convention…

Jacqueline Samuda:
Brian? Brian [inaudible].

Tom McBeath:
Yes. He’s great. What an amazing guy. He’s an Alfie character. And when he paid you at the end, he paid you in envelopes full of pounds.

Garwin Sanford:
Cash!

Tom McBeath:
And he told you the best place in town to get it changed into American dollars. I found this place in some weird plaza, and I came upstairs, and I walked in with this… and when I found where it was, I looked in and went, “Do I really want to do this?” But I walked in anyway, so I said, “Could I get this changed into American?” And the guy looked at me like it was drug money. But he finally said OK. And it turned out to be many more American dollars than we’d agreed on. So, he was a very generous man, Brian.

Garwin Sanford:
Actually it was, the first time I went, he took me around, met his family, took me out to dinner. Carted me around. He was really, really pleasant. I did the same thing. I wanted to change it into Canadian dollars, so we were in London. And I went to this little place to do it, and it’s literally on a street that was cobbled. And I’m standing there, and the guy’s looking at me and he goes, “OK. But you’ll have to come back in an hour.”

Jacqueline Samuda:
My God!

Garwin Sanford:
Because they didn’t have that much Canadian cash. I went away and came back in an hour. And then I’m standing there and they’re handing it over, and then I notice that there’s a guy standing down, halfway down the block, watching me. And I’m thinking, “OK.” So, I say to the guy behind the counter, I’m saying, “I’m sorry. I don’t know if I wanna do this cash.” I said, “There’s this guy standing over there that’s, he’s really hinky.” “Oh, no. He’s with us. We just weren’t sure if you were legit or not.” They thought I was gonna come in and rob the place. I went, “OK, good.”

Jacqueline Samuda:
I’m an actor. I play a robber on TV, but I am…

Garwin Sanford:
It’s a strange world, actually that I was introduced to that year.

Jacqueline Samuda:
When did you know that you wanted to be an actor?

Garwin Sanford:
I never really did. I went to university for three years, and then realized that wasn’t for me. I didn’t wanna pursue a sociology, psych double major thing. Then I discovered flying, so I started flying. And I was in Toronto Island, and I started working on my… I first started in Moncton, got my private license, then went to Ontario and went to the Toronto Island Flying School there. I was getting my commercial hours in, and then I said, “OK, I’m gonna go to BC and I’ll get mountain rated and float rated and get my IFR [Instrument Flight Rules] out there and my multi-engine.” And so, I got there, and I was working to get money to pay for all this, ’cause it’s expensive. So, there was some lag time. I’ll shorten this as short as I can, but I found a purse in a parking lot, and the purse had ID and money and $450 in it, and I was broke and, you know, “Take it. Don’t take it. Take it. Don’t take it,” and that sort of thing. But I couldn’t, so, 1980, no answering machines. I knew her name, looked her up in the phone book, called, nobody there. So, she has a little address book. So, I started phoning all the numbers. Finally, I get somebody. And he said, “Oh, yeah, I know her. Why?” I said, “Well, I found a purse in the parking lot.” And he goes, “Was there any money in it?” And I said, “Yeah, 450 bucks.” “Get outta here!” He was all… I said, “I’ll come and drop it off.” So, I did. Six months… And that was it. He said, “Oh, give me your name and stuff.” And I said, “No, no, no. It’s OK. Just make sure she gets it.” He goes, “Well, not a reward, but she’ll want to say thank you.” I said, “It’s OK.” I figured karma. Started chalking it up. Six months later, I’m living in the basement of a house on 16th and Maple in Vancouver. She moves into the same house.

Jacqueline Samuda:
No!

Garwin Sanford:
So, I didn’t say anything. I didn’t, I went, “No, no. This is too weird.” And the reason I knew it was her is we had a communal mailbox, and I saw the name, and I remembered her name, and I went, “No, no. OK, fine.” Well, another couple months go by, and I’m picking up my mail. She’s coming up to get her mail. So, I hand it to her. And I’d got long hair. I’m a freaky looking guy, unshaven, and she’s going… and she backs up. She says, “Aha! You know who I am.” I said, “I don’t. Didn’t mean to scare you. Found your purse in a parking lot, eight months ago.” And she screams, “What?” She grabs me by the wrists and starts dragging me down to the apartment. I’m going…

Jacqueline Samuda:
What’s happening?

Tom McBeath:
Ooh. What kind of karma am I in for here?

Jacqueline Samuda:
I said I didn’t want a reward!

Garwin Sanford:
She turns, and what I’d done is, she had a checkbook in the thing, so I wrote down ‘paid to the order of’, “Didn’t think you’d see this again, huh?” and then put my first name, Garwin, ’cause it’s a weird name. And I would just be part of the story. She turned around and points next to the door, and that check was framed on the wall. She was at the lowest point of her life. She had lost her money. She, she was going on a holiday to try and figure out her life. She goes off and loses her purse, and says, “No, no, no.” She borrows the money and goes anyway. But she comes back, gets everything returned, and she goes, “I realize there’s good people in the world.” And she puts that as her little touchstone. Every day, she’d go out. Every day, she’d look at that check and go, “Yes, there are good people out there.” And I thought, “Well, that’s pretty cool.” “Sit down, you’re having tea.” She’s a theater student at UBC and I’m a wannabe. I’m saying, “Well, yeah, people say I have a good voice, and I thought it might be fun to do a commercial or something.” And she’s just, she didn’t laugh at me. She didn’t… she goes, “Well, you know what you could do? There’s a place called Studio 58. You can go there and get an audition kit, and you’ll audition for the program. You won’t get in.” I tried. Out of 400 people, 16 get accepted. So, I said, “Yeah, OK. Well, I thought it would be fun just to see,” so I did. Anthony Holland is auditioning. I made every single mistake you can make. I did everything wrong, everything. And he comes down and he goes “What the … are you doing here?” And he goes, “OK.” And he starts to give me notes. I had no idea what he’s saying about pacing, and time, all the things he’s, arcs and, he realizes I don’t know what he’s saying. He goes, “You’re very green.” And I said, “Well, isn’t that what theater schools are for, to make you not green?” He just shakes his head. Two weeks later, I get an acceptance letter in the mail. And I went, “No.” So, I phoned them up and I said, “I think you’ve made a mistake.” They go, “No.” I said, “It says here this. Does that mean I’m accepted?” She goes, “Well, I’ll check.” She goes, “We don’t usually make those kinds of mistakes. Yes, you’ve been accepted.” So, I went up to the school and looked at the prospectus to see what the thing was. Don’t just close the door on me. Acting, Shakespeare, voice, mime, dance, jazz and modern, fencing. Fencing? I’m going, “OK. I’ll go for three months, four months. I’ll do the term, I’ll have some fun, and then I’ll go back to flying.” I thought I’d do something for me. Three years later, I graduate and I go, “What have I done?” So, I still didn’t… Even when I finished, I didn’t really think I was gonna be an actor.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It was meant to be.

Garwin Sanford:
So, it was no choices. But the first… I get an agent, you know, and the first six auditions I went out on, I got all six jobs. And they just started sending me out for everything. So, it just took off. But I never really made that choice. I liked it at theater school and it was good for me, so I stayed. Then I realized I was 25 when I went. So, I’m 30 when I get out. 29 and going on 30. I’m thinking, “What have I done? What have I done? I’ve gotta go, God, I’ve gotta get back, I gotta finish my training.” But it completely changed, so there was no decision

Jacqueline Samuda:
That’s amazing. When did you know that you wanted to be an actor?

Tom McBeath:
After I’d done some amateur theater for a few years. I was a computer programmer in Winnipeg in the late ’60s, early ’70s. I tried to get into the Christmas show that they were gonna do for the Christmas thing that Air Canada was gonna do, to do something, because I was quite bored and I hadn’t met anybody. So, I signed up to get in to do the entertainment for the Christmas show for the Christmas party for Air Canada, and met some people. And the program didn’t have him because there was only one guy, me, and the rest were women. And the director said, “Well, either there’s more men here next week, or we’re not gonna do this.” So, we didn’t do it, because no other men showed up. Then probably…

Garwin Sanford:
How old were you?

Tom McBeath:
I was 23, I think. 22 or 23. And I did theater with sissy at high school. I was asked to do this stuff and it was too sissy. We just partied and drank. When I was at a bar on a date, and there was a band, we went to see a particular band, and it was our first date, and she was more a friend than a possible date. Anyways, at the end, the bar was shut down, the band finished, and you still had a half hour or so afterwards to finish your drinks, and she’d gone up to go to the bathroom. There was a group of women at a table singing songs from… that I thought my parents would know those songs, but they would just know the chorus, they wouldn’t know the words to the verses. So, I went over and said, “How do you guys know all these…” “Well, we belong to an amateur musical theater group. Oh, we’re auditioning for Oklahoma! tomorrow, would you like to come?” And I looked up and said, “Well,” and one of ’em popped up and said, “I’ll come and pick you up.” And I said, “OK.” So, I gave her my address and stuff, and then I went back to the table and the girl came back and I didn’t say anything to her, that I’d gone over and met these girls.
So, the girl picked me up, and her name was… She changed her name to something. And she told me she had changed her name, and I said, “Well, what was your real name?” And she says, “It was Ariadne.” And I said, “Why would you change that? That’s a beautiful name.” And she said, “Well, no one can pronounce it.” So, we got there to the church, and she parked and she said, “So, you just go through that door there.” And I said, “Well, aren’t you coming in?” And I was getting quite sweet on her, and she said, “No, I’m too busy right now. I’m not gonna do it this year.” So, I went in, and I had never been anywhere, and I picked up a side, and I read it, and I didn’t get the part, but I ended up being Judd in the dream sequence. Anyways, in Oklahoma! So, the next year, the guy playing the lead in a home-written musical, and it was a big CBC director who ended up producing Beachcombers here. In the second part of, or the end of Beachcombers, the last 10 years. He had written a musical with a lady named Anne — what was her name — Agnes [inaudible]. How I can remember her name, I don’t know. Anyway, it was called The Republic of Manitobah, and it was about how Manitoba was gonna be taken over, they feared, by the Americans coming up in the turn of the century before it had become a province. So, they got together to form a republic. And the guy, they’d done it 10 years before and they were gonna do it as a celebration of 10 years of being the musical theater called Interfaith Harmony Theater. So, there was Jewish, there was Christian, and anybody else involved in this group. So, he was a Jew, and he got the lead part, ’cause he’d done it 10 years before. But he got a part ’cause he’d auditioned for MTC [Manitoba Theatre Centre], the professional theater in town, to carry a spear. So, he said he wasn’t gonna do the show, and he was gonna go carry a spear. So, we had to audition, and I’d auditioned, and they had all liked me and realized they should have cast me then, the last play, really better. And I had a nice little part with a little song, and it was a nice little character. And the stage manager said, “OK, we lost so-and-so, you’re gonna go to audition for the star character.” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yes, you are. Get in there.” And I said, “No, I’m gonna do this.” She said, “Get in there.” So, I went in on audition and I got the part. So, then I ended up joining his amateur theater, the director’s amateur theater group that just did new Canadian plays back in 1968, ’69. And I really started to enjoy the stuff, and I ended up in four more groups. And, in the meantime, I also got engaged, and the wedding date was set, and we had toured a little amateur show. And we got back from the show, and the girl that I was engaged to, we got into a talk, and she said, “Listen, I don’t want you to do this anymore because it’s taking up too much of your time. “And I said, “Well, I really, really enjoy it and I really like doing it.” And she says, “Yes, but it’s taking time away from me.” And I said, “Well, yeah. Is that why you didn’t tell me that you changed the date of our wedding?” ‘Cause some of her relatives couldn’t come. And she said, “Well, yeah, and so-and-so and so-and-so couldn’t come from Edmonton, so we changed it.” I said, “Well, you could have told me.” And so, we ended up in this big fight, and she threw the engagement ring at me. And that was the end of that. So, we went about another six months or so and I figured… I would come in for work at 10:00 and I would leave at 4:00 because I was doing too much theater and partying too much afterwards. ‘Cause it was also really a social thing as much as anything. But then I thought, “Oh, I’m probably gonna end up getting fired, I better do something different,” ’cause I’d been there four years and I was really getting used to the salary. And we were considered managers because we were computer programmers, but we were just ciphers of some kind. So, I decided to audition for a theater school. I tried to audition for National, but I was too old, so I auditioned for University of Alberta, and I got into their program. But I was too old and I had to submit as an adult student, so I had to go there for tests and I had to write all these psychological exams, mostly multiple choice.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Because University of Alberta is also an academic degree, right?

Tom McBeath:
Yeah.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It was one of two schools.

Tom McBeath:
And it’s a four-year program. Their BA programs were three years, but their BFA was four. And I only had junior matric, I didn’t have senior matric because I was a high school graduate from here. But I’d been a BCIT graduate, but they didn’t count that. So, if I’d had senior matric in Alberta, I wouldn’t have had to write adult tests. And at the end of the tests, I had to go see this psych guy and he said, “Well, no, you were good in all… You could, any of the arts. You’re really good in teaching, social kind of stuff.” They all go, “What? What did you say you were?” I said, “A computer programmer.” And he looked at me and he went…

Jacqueline Samuda:
No, you’re not. No, you’re not.

Tom McBeath:
So, I got into the theater school, and it was sort of that evening as we had the fight in the… I had a yellow Mustang, ’67 Mustang. And so, she threw the ring and it bounced off the door, and I eventually had to find it under the seat. Anyways, it was probably started that evening that I started getting serious about how much I did like it ’cause it’s the first time I’d actually said I enjoy doing it. But I did learn once I got to theater school from basically one individual who sort of said, “Tom…” She eventually, at some point maybe two years into our relationship, our relationship as professional while in the theater school, “Tom, you have a small talent. Look after it.” But she also taught me about the importance of script, the writer and the responsibilities to the script and the writer and to your actors on the stage and to the director and to everything that was involved in putting the thing together. It still took me many years later to actually realize your responsibility was just as much to the audience as to all those other pieces. It had its percentage.

Jacqueline Samuda:
I went to York University. But you both have that… There was a meant-to-be quality. And for me, even though I knew that I wanted to be an actor from the time I was three, and I did all the plays, all the… And then I did community theater, and then I auditioned for York University, and started there at 17. When I graduated, I auditioned for Shaw Festival, and I was accepted as an apprentice, ’cause I was too young to be in the main company. And it was eight shows a week, and completely felt at home. And I was fortunate that my high school had a 1,000-seat theater, so I was used to…

Tom McBeath:
The big stuff.

Jacqueline Samuda:
… the big theater, so it felt good, and it felt right. And then I started a theater company when I moved back to Toronto, and I did a production of a Tom Walmsley show, and he performed in it as well, and so it drew some…

Tom McBeath:
Which, which play?

Jacqueline Samuda:
It was The Jones Boy.

Tom McBeath:
The Jones Boy.

Jacqueline Samuda:
And he appeared as the Trick. And I had to find him. I called my theater teacher, Ron Singer and I said, “I wanna produce a show, and I’m not sure… ” And he said, “There’s this writer who’s kind of under-produced, and I don’t know why. His name is Tom Walmsley.” This guy was living under the radar. I had to find him. So, I found him, and he said, “Listen, I’m gonna waive the rights. You don’t have to pay me anything.” And I said, “No, I insist.” There I am, 21 years old, “I’m starting a theater company. I insist on paying you the rights. Would you consider playing the Trick?” And he said, “Absolutely not.” And I said, “Are you afraid?” And apparently, he had just made a pact with himself that he would never say no to something out of fear. And so, he agreed to do it, and we became extremely close friends. And it was a very successful run, had lineups around the block. And so, some of the people who saw it then contacted me and said, “Can we get a hold of the two actresses that… ‘Cause we need a young actress for this production that Necessary Angel is doing.” And they were not available. I said, “But I’m an actress too.” And they were like, “Hmm. OK. All right, you can audition too.” And so, I auditioned. I got the role in that. I got my Equity ticket then. And then I had done a student movie at York that was screened by Atom Egoyan. I realized later that this is why he called me in to audition for one of his movies. And you were talking about how when you are first on set, and you’re a theater actor, and you’re waiting for some kind of feedback from the audience, and there’s no feedback because you’re in a movie, and everyone has to be quiet. And so, here I am as this young bride in Atom’s second film, I think it was. And I’m playing this character who’s being interviewed by Arsenic and [inadubile], and she’s just asking these awkward questions of a young bride. She’s supposed to be the videographer at a wedding, but she’s like, “What makes you think you belong together?” And it’s getting very uncomfortable. And I feel like if I were on stage, people would be laughing, but nobody’s laughing, ’cause I’m kind of using some clown, like we were taught clown. So, it’s all this energy stuff, and I’m like, “Where’s the laughter?” Because it’s a movie. And then they would say, “Cut,” and then everybody would laugh. And I was like, “Oh, OK.” So, it was really cool to actually have that energy, and have that exchange of energy but it’s different. It’s different. And there were meant-to-be things like that for me. And my agent that I ended up booking, I had gone in to meet an agent, and they were like, “I just don’t know. I’m not sure.” I’d walked down the hall, and one of the other agents saw me, and without telling me, picked up my flyer for the play I was in. I was doing “No Exit” at the Trigon Theater. And she had come to see me, and signed me the next day. So, I started doing some auditions. The head of the agency said to me, “There’s no reason you shouldn’t be doing voice too. We do voice here at the talent group.” And I thought, “OK, great. I’d love to do voice.” So, I was temping at the time, so I’m working in office. “OK, you have a voice audition.” Have to get on my bike, and I have to do a Nova Scotian accent. And I’m thinking, “OK, I’ve only heard a Nova Scotian accent about twice in my life.” “Who settled in Nova Scotia? Scottish people settled in Nova Scotia. Some English people settled in.” So, I’m doing a little Scotty from Star Trek in my mind. I went a little English here, da-da-da. And I came up with this accent, and it turned out it was a massive campaign for the Liberal Party of Nova Scotia. And so, I booked this huge job that I did all summer long, and I was doing a Nova Scotian accent, with Nova Scotian people on the line who were arguing about what neighborhood I was from in this particular part of this one town. And that started my whole voice thing, which, frankly, is what sustains me when things are slow, like during COVID and everything else. Voice is such a huge part of my career right now.

Garwin Sanford:
In theater school… I’m from Nova Scotia. So, in theater school, they had to… Kathryn Shaw was my mentor there, besides Anthony Holland. And the note was always, “Slow down,” ’cause we talked so fast. In Nova Scotia, they say, “Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.” Also diction. So, I had to clear it up. So, it took me a while to get rid of the accent, and to do diction, and actually slow down and breathe. ‘Cause people out there in Nova Scotia, you’ll be talking, and before you finish the end of your sentence, they’ll start talking ’cause they know what you’re gonna say. And they… So, there’s this overlap happening. I’ve had people run screaming from the room that weren’t from Nova Scotia going, “What?” “I can’t do it.”

Jacqueline Samuda:
I’m from a big family. So, we do that too. People run screaming from the room too. Tell us a little bit about Scrooge, and what he means to you. This play that you’ve been doing periodically over time, Christmas Carol, and the character of Scrooge.

Tom McBeath:
So, the last time we did it was probably before COVID, and probably two years before that. And we did three productions at the Belfry Theatre in Victoria about every second or third year. So, over six years, we did it three times. Or over seven years, we did it three times. Jerry McKay played Marley and the three ghosts. And him and I went through the three productions, and a number of other actors went through the three productions. A lot of the kids changed, but it was the same director and the man who did the adaptation, Michael Shamada, who had written the script many, many years before, and had done it in Toronto, back in Halifax, directing it as well. He probably wrote it in the late ’90s and it’s been done many, many, many times. It’s a really good production and actually it was done this year at the Globe Theatre in Regina. His production, and it’s still running till January the 4th. It can’t cover the whole thing, but it’s really honest about what’s there and it’s his point of view on it, and there’s some–

Jacqueline Samuda:
What about the moment where Scrooge realizes that he’s wasted his life, but somehow he still deserves some kind of redemption?

Tom McBeath:
It’s amazing how quickly he starts to realize how screwed up he is. The first time he’s out with the Ghost of Christmas Past, he’s at the school as a kid that he attended, that he was pushed into. And he starts to feel what he felt as a kid, and how lost and afraid he was, and it all comes back to him. Now, he doesn’t think… he doesn’t actually learn that it’s those things that turned him into who he is. That sort of happens as he continues experiencing his past and the present and it’s the future where he realizes that he does have to change, when he does see his headstone.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Did you by chance see the production that’s just… I don’t know if it’s still on. I think it is though. Christmas Carol with the puppets at the Olympic Theatre? I just saw it. It’s interesting.

Tom McBeath:
No, I would love to see that.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Only four, I couldn’t believe it was only four performers because, you know, they come out and they… Sometimes a 10-foot puppet and sometimes just a normal human with the large heads. It’s quite something. And it’s virtually silent. There’s a little bit of surtitles, but it was interesting to…

Tom McBeath:
No, I would’ve loved to have seen that. Anyways, I don’t know. It’s probably the piece that I’ve been reintroduced more often, and each time we’ve worked on it, it’s changed. Michael would say, “Well, let’s think about it this way this time. All the times I’ve directed this show, I’ve never thought of it in these terms.” So, and that’s probably where I sit with the best I’ve… The most I’ve got out of it is with the last way we sort of approached it, that he didn’t start out as a, he wasn’t the mean guy. He was this impatient man who couldn’t understand the world around him.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Yeah, so the relationship with Cratchit is there’s an impatience in dealing with him as…

Tom McBeath:
Yeah. I think it started with his impatience with him and how stupid the man was, like everyone else was stupid. But eventually it got to the point where they weren’t so much stupid as they just didn’t pay attention to what the real world was, and he was quite comfortable with his real world, and so he wasn’t threatened by someone like Cratchit who was asking for leniency for this group of people, and it was more like, “You must understand, young man, the way the world really is. So, please try to do that.” And with the nephew that comes in to ask him to come to visit, “Look, you just live your way. I’ll live mine, and I’m not going to knock the way you live. Well, I will ask you, why you did get married. Why did you marry?”

Jacqueline Samuda:
Is it because your character’s forgotten about Bella and her and–

Garwin Sanford:
But you have a problem with it.

Tom McBeath:
No, and when he says, “Well, for love.”

Garwin Sanford:
Because of love. Does he not represent, though, the loss of Fan? Is that where it starts?

Tom McBeath:
Well, eventually. Yeah, but he’s handled all that. He has that…

Garwin Sanford:
He thinks he has.

Tom McBeath:
Yes. He has it in the suitcase and it’s packed away and in his real life today, you don’t have to deal with that kinda stuff. And it’s when the nephew’s there, at some point, he is, “Why did you marry?” It’s a little question: “Why did you marry?” And he says, “Well, I married because of love.” And of course, Belle just wants to come up in him. And he knows how it starts to come up and he takes it and he pushes it down.

Garwin Sanford:
And gets angry.

Tom McBeath:
No, he doesn’t get angry, love. Love. And he tells what he went through. He doesn’t tell it, he just says, “How stupid, how idiotic that stuff is.” And that’s the excuse is he’s made so he can keep his spine. And he doesn’t have to fight it. He has to suppress his own feelings to keep his spine, but it’s not to say you’re wrong, it’s to suppress what’s coming up in him. So, it’s a whole other way of dealing with life rather than just being angry with everyone. Anyways, it was an interesting way to go about life as well.

Garwin Sanford:
In this version that you said, this version that I was raised reading.

Tom McBeath:
It’s the same version we did.

Garwin Sanford:
It always felt like he would rise up whenever Cratchit says, “The Trotters are good people. They’re debtors. Fuck you. Shut up.” But it’s Cratchit’s a bit of his conscience in a way speaking, and then Belle, or the nephew, a little bit of conscience rising, and he has to push that down every time.

Tom McBeath:
It’s not something that you play through the thing.

Garwin Sanford:
No.

Tom McBeath:
It’s like any play you’re in that you go with the rule of you can only yell once.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Yes.

Tom McBeath:
So, no matter how angry you are, you can only yell once.
You can only cry once. I know I had a lot of fun with the impatience and trying to hold, trying to control the anger so that you didn’t yell more than once. But you could see that there was anger. And we got to the point where the anger became his own, his anger, the anger with himself at some level.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It’s interesting with acting how sometimes the thing that you’re playing is the thing that you’re not allowing yourself to play. The character, if you’re angry but you can’t allow yourself to be angry. I played a role once where I had to… I’d been actually shot in the face, and the bullet was lodged… I was a real person I was recreating, and the bullet was lodged in the back, behind the spine. But not knowing that and coming downstairs and not being able to breathe. I was young, and I was trying not to breathe. Jerry Ciccoritti was directing, and he said, “Try to breathe.”

Garwin Sanford:
Try to breathe.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Try to breathe. It’s like that when we were talking about anger: trying to push anger down, and that shows that you’re angry, trying not to be angry.

Tom McBeath:
In Chekhov’s Three Sisters, In Chekhov’s plays there’s usually a speech by the male somewhere where he goes through something of his life in some way, and in the middle of it, it says, “He cries.” And this production of Three Sisters we did, the actor playing the brother of the three sisters, has married a lady that he really dislikes, I think, but doesn’t admit that. His sisters despise her, and she is a real bag of a lady. In the first act, he’s this person that has all these visions of what he wants to do with his life, all these goals, and he’s this positive guy. And by the time you get to the second act, he’s now working in town for the mayor, or the manager of the town, or whatever it happens to be. And he’s sort of a bit of a cipher. And he’s in the garden on his own, and they have a baby and the baby’s in the carriage. And he’s writing some stuff, and there’s a knock on the gate, and he goes to the gate and opens it, and a messenger comes in from town with a message from the head guy in town, his boss, that he hands it to him and he reads it and he’s gotta do something. And he says, “OK, just wait here.” And he looks at the thing, and the old guy’s old and deaf. He’s deaf, and he’s old, but he’s still just trying to make a living. So, he looks at it and he reads this thing and he just realizes how disgusting his life has become, that he’s just this cipher. And he looks at the man, and he looks at the baby, and he goes through his life from where he began and his dreams, and where he is now, and what he’s gonna become. And it’s a really beautiful soliloquy. And the actor playing the part was having a hell of a time with it because he was doing it in an angry way. He was going, “I started off as this and then I became this, and now I’m this, and that’s what I’m gonna become.” And so, at one point, he asked me, he said, “I’m having trouble with this. What do I do?” And I said, “You sit at the table, and you look at the child, and everything you say now is the truth. And you work through it image by image, and you get to looking at that man and you can’t help but cry. You’re a piece of shit. And the tears, you can’t stop yourself.” And I’d learned that from a designer. On a Chekhov I did in theater school. ‘Cause the director wanted me to get up and scream and yell, and the designer said, “Don’t you dare do that. You just sit there.” And then he did it. So, then his partner, who became a famous Canadian stage director, told him that that was wrong, that he had to get up and yell and make a lot of noise, so he did. And of course, the audience never hears you when you’re yelling for any length of time, and so you miss the whole thing. And it’s one of the great things, the most important things in a character that you can do is do it quietly. And as honestly as you can in your head. You can grab an audience, and you can just get into their hearts and their minds, and you can’t do it when you yell. So, the one yell is the one yell.

Garwin Sanford:
That’s right.

Tom McBeath:
And you can’t cry too often. You can get to the point of just where you’re going to, and then you’ve gotta swallow it and come out of that and let the audience do it.

Garwin Sanford:
Also, we were talking in the break about us playing bad guys a lot. I’ve played a lot of bad guys too. I’m never talking about being bad guys. But I had learned from Tom in that movie Quarantine that you can have so much fun. And that’s when I started to really play with that in my characters when I play bad guys. But whenever it says in the script, a film script specifically, he’s yelling or screaming, I go the other way. Completely the other way. And because of that “See-ya” line again, that brings me back to this where my career became about… Garwin came in and did risks in the room. The risk was to do it, I’d work at it till I would find my hook that was different, something that would turn it on its head from how they had written it and described it in the… because as we know, a lot of television and film stuff is quickly written. They don’t have the… not like plays that have been sweat over, every word. I would never, ever consider changing a word from a play. My job is to make sure that I do what’s written. But in television and film, it’s not that developed, so you get to play and add lines and start to do things. But that’s the one for me, was to turn them on their head. And that’s what I became known for. That’s what I got hired for, was I’d come in with something that was, “Oh, I didn’t even think of that,” because I was looking for something to make me happy by doing it. And I didn’t wanna yell and scream. I hate yelling and screaming. It doesn’t happen very often. I don’t wanna yell and scream.

Tom McBeath:
But then you got to the point in this business here. I think I started that way in the film and TV business, but then when we got to the point here where you could not change a word in the series stuff…

Garwin Sanford:
That’s right.

Tom McBeath:
… where you were just locked in with the script.

Garwin Sanford:
It’s because of the lawyers had already okayed everything, so that’s come to be…

Tom McBeath:
But then I got to the point I went back to always paying attention to the script, probably to my detriment in the auditions where you try and plumb exactly what’s being said there. And finding yourself locked into stuff and trying to do the best you can with that, thinking, “Yes, he did that really well, but he wasn’t very interesting. Maybe we can get Garwin in to do this.” You and I have talked about some of our spiritual inner things. What about yourself?

Jacqueline Samuda:
Talking about bad guys to begin with, it’s something that fans often ask about too, is what’s going on behind the scenes in the mentality of this Nirrti character or whomever it is. And as actors, we’re always playing subtext. We’re not playing the language. We’re not playing what’s… So, to be playing an evil character or a bad guy, that character is always all about subtext. Whatever they’re saying is not what’s really going on, and they have the agenda, and the agenda will, if you’re a bad guy, will frequently be a secret agenda. And my career on TV, I started… I was always cops or kinda killers. I was always the undercover cop, and so it really emphasized subtext all the time, what’s listening and playing, what’s not actually on the surface and what’s on the page. I’ve really enjoyed Nirrti because, as you say, a bad guy doesn’t know he’s a bad guy. Nirrti, for example, is trying to improve science and build on scientific development to create the most highly developed and, so even though people may die, the planet may be blown up, a child may be sacrificed, it’s all for the greater good. And that’s, you know, when you’re talking about the Scrooge character, it’s like, “I’m living in the real world here, people.” You can talk about all this kind of peripheral nonsense. It’s really not what we’re after here. But my favorite characters probably have been on stage, to be honest. And we were talking about silence as opposed to yelling. I did Killer’s Head, and Killer’s Head is a character who is about to be executed in an electric chair. So, with the blindfold…

Garwin Sanford:
So, so this is Sam…

Jacqueline Samuda:
Sam Shepard, yeah. So, I’m playing a male character, but obviously I’m playing it as me, physically. So, I’m trapped in an electric chair. I have a blindfold on, and it’s a seven-minute monologue with a two-minute silence in the middle of it. And so, you can’t use your body and you can’t use your eyes, and you’re basically, it’s the mentality of this killer before the execution. And this two-minute silence, you have to be performing silence in a way that keeps everyone present in the audience on the edge of their seats and completely wondering what’s happening but knowing. It’s not like, “Oh, the actor forgot her line.” No, there’s no question. No line has been forgotten. You’re gonna sit there and you’re gonna suffer and feel the subtext because you’re not hearing the text at all. So, that was definitely one of my favorite characters.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, Sam Shepard, challenging writer. I mean, A Curse to Start a Class is one of my favorite plays.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Ah, yeah.

Garwin Sanford:
I love that play. And Cowboy Mouth. You know, he was arguably one of our, I think, shining lights when it came to modern playwriting. And, and always thought about that specific challenge to sit there for that long and how do you engage an audience? How did you?

Jacqueline Samuda:
It was, at that time, I was very into breaking down a script, every single level of intention and the emotion that came as a consequence of the intention. Everything was as a consequence of an action, even though the action was what I am doing, not physically. Obviously, I’m trapped in a chair, but I am making a point, I am making a stand, I am gathering myself, and I’m gonna go out the way I choose. And even though there’s complete limitations on everything physically, I can’t see, presumably it’s silent, but I’m taking some control of those last minutes of life. And so, it was so, and again, I mentioned learning, going through university and learning clown and everything else and learning energy. I was doing a lot of energy work, and I could really feel exchanges of energy with the audience so that we were in a space together and everybody felt that elevation of energy. It was not a normal space. And you have to release it, and then people can release, but they’re not just sitting there relaxed and sitting back, and at least that’s how it felt for me. And apparently that’s, another play that I did early days was The Wool Gatherer, William Mastrosimone, and this is a character who’s got some restrictions, mentally. She’s got some mental health issues and she’s not a sophisticated person, and she brings a man home to her apartment and she borrows his sweater. Eventually he finds out she’s got a collection of sweaters. But she has a monologue in the middle where she talks about going to the zoo and seeing these cranes basically being murdered. Kids were throwing rocks and breaking their legs. And it becomes this allegory for her life of this powerlessness, this figure of beauty and fragility being basically destroyed by this kind of outward cruelty, and in this monologue, she’s basically saying, “I have to, because people don’t care, I have to care for everyone.” And it was so, I felt so completely at one, like we were in a space all together. And that’s something that very rarely can happen on a film set, I find, but it can happen. But in the theater, because of the special space that it is, it’s really a sacred space. The energy can become almost like a circuit. And I’ve felt that moments certainly in theater and occasionally in film.

Garwin Sanford:
I think it has to be the circuit. It has to be the circuit. When the audience is there, if it’s not feeding back, you’re not doing your job. It’s not working. But when it works, and when it doesn’t work, you know it.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Have you had a character that’s been especially meaningful to you, where you’ve had that experience?

Garwin Sanford:
Not yet.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Not yet?

Tom McBeath:
I’ve had a ton. Not a ton, but lots. I’ve been really lucky as a stage actor, Death of a Salesman, you sort of go… And I got to do that twice. And the second time, If you get a really neat character and you get to play him twice, wow.

Jacqueline Samuda:
I haven’t done theater in so long, I think I would have such terrible stage fright. I’ve only done one play since I moved to Vancouver, 22 years ago, and it was a great experience. It was a great experience.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, Anthony Holland said to me once, he goes, “If you, in your acting career get to have one moment where you are the right age, at the right time, with the right director, with the right project once in your life, count yourself lucky.” I haven’t found it yet. I have not. I’ve had some really… I’ve loved, there’s been roles that I’ve done that I’m really proud of and that I’ve enjoyed, but nothing that I feel like was that, rung that bell yet. And I haven’t given up, so we’ll see. I’m hoping to have it before I can’t remember my lines.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Same for camera. I hope to have some really great stuff.

Tom McBeath:
Well, I’ve done about 130 plays, professional plays. The chances of having a couple of good ones are really great.

Garwin Sanford:
That’s astounding. I’ve done one professional play. I got outta theater school and did Basta! with Gina Bastone. And it was a mixture of mask work, comedic work, clown work. And I’d never been in a play. We rehearsed for six months, because there were so many physical things, and Gina was, and James Keylon, perfectionists, and so every routine that we did had to be perfect. And the pieces were really challenging for the audience. But it was always about to be funny. And I’ve never experienced this in my whole life since or before, but at the end of every single performance, we closed off with a certain piece, a mask piece. The audience was quiet for about 10 or 15 seconds, and then they leaped to their feet every single time. Gina and James were geniuses. They did their work, comedic and social comment. We had a piece called the Jesus Piece, which just freaked people out, because it took on religion in a certain way. But anyway, regardless, that’s the only play I’ve ever done. ‘Cause right after that, I started getting film work and then didn’t stop. I was doing, all the time I was doing. The first year, I got 12 or 14 jobs. The next year it was 16 to 18. I just kept working. And I kept going. And I love the intimacy. But I regret to this day that I didn’t keep it up. 130 plays. It’s astounding. Astounding.

Tom McBeath:
Well, it’s a business that I know, and I still am totally uncomfortable in front of cameras.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It’s your show.

Tom McBeath:
I know I don’t understand them. I have no interest in figuring out, “Oh, what lens are you using? OK, I’m OK over here,” that kinda stuff. And I respect people so much and the work that they’re doing, that I think that when I’m on a set, it’s OK. I could talk to ASMs. I can talk to the people at Craft. I can talk to a fair number of people, but I will not go spend any time bothering the director, because they’re busy. Or the DoP, or the camera guys, or the lighting guys, or the guy pushing the…It’s just… they’re doing their job. I can’t interfere with that.

Jacqueline Samuda:
I always think of the camera as, it’s almost like a person in a way, but it’s a person who’s, who’s psychic, a person who can see through any artifice that I have, a person who knows the subtext of the character, who knows that I’m not actually good if I’m playing a bad guy.

Garwin Sanford:
I’m just the opposite, ’cause I was always…

Tom McBeath:
‘Cause you go talk to everybody. I was sitting, and I’d be right next to the director. And I respect all those people that can.

Garwin Sanford:
I’d be right next to the director ’cause I wanted… And I ended up directing a little half-million-dollar feature a number of years ago. I wanted to direct it, I wanna put that together. But what you’re talking about is that, I have a lot of directors tell you, “No, don’t, the camera’s not there. You’re just by yourselves.” And I’m going, “No. That’s another character in the show.” And it’s the audience. So, we talk about not having an audience? I believe I do have one. And it’s right there in the camera. And I really play to that. There’s a, I forget the guy’s name now, but he coined a phrase called window of true nature. And it’s where every show I do, I try to find a window of true nature, which means I show that character in the camera, something that I don’t show anybody else in the show.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Exactly. Yes.

Garwin Sanford:
None of the other characters see this. They’ll never ever see this reveal of the messy. I’ll [inaudible] the messy. It gets revealed in this moment, and sometimes it’s with your back to the camera, backting we call it.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Backting.

Garwin Sanford:
But there’s a moment where I know that no one else sees me, the characters aren’t looking, and I can give the audience that moment to show a window into who I am. And then close it shut right away and then move on. That’s what I look for. I look for those moments where I can bring those levels, and where can I pick them out? And I do as many as I can so that it’s like a secret. It’s when you’re unguarded. Every character has moments they’re unguarded. You don’t do it in front of everybody, but you do it when no one’s watching.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Nice.

Garwin Sanford:
But then you know that the audience is watching. Let’s share it with them.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Well, it’s nice to be able to do this with you, Garwin, and with you, Tom. We’d met at conventions in the past, but if the industry hadn’t changed the way it has since COVID, we might have run into each other in audition rooms multiple times. It doesn’t happen anymore since COVID, and every actor had to become a technician and start recording their own private auditions. Many actors will have their co-reader on Zoom, or they have to have their partner, who might not be a professional in the industry, do it, and we all have to figure out the lights and the camera. Are we using an iPhone or a different camera, backdrops, and all of that. It’s really changed everything. And for me, it felt very distracting initially. I’m just thinking about how to shoot an audition as opposed to how to do my audition. How was it for you?

Garwin Sanford:
It’s a disservice to all parts of the process. I find that when I went into the room, you did have an audience. There’s those people there, so you are prepped for a performance, and you also are selling not only your craft, but you’re selling your knowledge of what that is. So, when you come into the room, you can inform them how much you know about film by the questions you ask, just the shooting or asking for framing, the choices you make in the room, and then you get the opportunity to ask them a question. And I would always have something to ask them, even if they said, “Well, let’s get moving.” I said, “Let me just have one question.” I want to show them, A, I’m thinking and I’m an actor, and I wanna find out who I’m working with. And now, that’s completely gone because you do it in front of a camera, like you said. The disservice for them is a disconnect from who the actor is as a person, what kind of energy they’re gonna bring to the room. But also, why would they pay me to entertain an audience if I don’t entertain them in the room? Make them want to see more? So, you’ve got that happening. Then for them, they get completely removed. One of the things that casting people are saying, their complaints have been in the past, is that some of the actors who may not be up to that part of the role will film this thing 40, 50 times until they get the one that worked, and then they see…

Jacqueline Samuda:
And then they get…

Garwin Sanford:
They hire them, and then they…

Jacqueline Samuda:
… get on set.

Garwin Sanford:
… actually do something slightly different, and they are lost.

Jacqueline Samuda:
I’ve heard that.

Garwin Sanford:
So, that’s another complaint. The disservice is on all sides. I don’t know how many times someone texts me and I go, I’ll call them right away. “Hi, I just wanted to hear your voice.” I don’t wanna answer in texts all the time. I wanna connect. But they’ve discovered that they don’t have to block off in pre-production, which is very busy, three days to see actors in a room all day long. They can now take the tape, and they’re on the toilet, they’re having dinner, they’re driving, someone’s driving them wherever, so they just look at them willy-nilly. Again, disservice. They’re not focused on what it is that’s happening for this session. So, I think it’s a disservice to all of us, and I don’t think it’ll ever come back because it’s about this, as always, top quality.

Jacqueline Samuda:
And the fact that there is an audience and there is an amount of stage presence that they can feel, and there’s chemistry, and the chemistry element is really…

Garwin Sanford:
Out the window.

Jacqueline Samuda:
… unfortunately out the window.

Garwin Sanford:
I’m selfish. I love to audition. I love going into an audition room where it’s this completely anti-acting. You’ve made all your choices ’cause there’s nobody. You’re not trusting that you’re gonna get something from the reader, so you make all your choices, which is completely anti-acting. You’re not working with anybody, but you’re just creating something. I love that. The challenge of it is to make it real for them. And also charm them. Make the room work for you. And as a result, I used to work. But now when it’s, “Hi, my name is Garwin Sanford. I’m from Vancouver. I’m six foot two, and I’m a member of the union.” That’s all they see of you. And you can’t put much personality into that, and then you see the read. You do it good or not.

Tom McBeath:
At the end of that, I do always add, “And I’m available.”

Garwin Sanford:
I think at the end I say, “Thanks for having me audition.” But there’s not much you can do with that. So, I’m a little upset because my skill set was to sell in the room and do the job. And that gets pulled away, and I miss… Maybe because I don’t do theater, I miss that ’cause that’s when I got to perform. And honestly, a couple of the best performances I’ve ever done in my life were actually in an audition room. I never even got to repeat it on the day. I must have disappointed them, I guess. It wasn’t as good as… I didn’t think it was as good as when it was in that room. How about you?

Tom McBeath:
It’s all the same for me too. I don’t think I was as good in the room as you, but I did enjoy going in and being with real people. And especially given the way we have to do stuff now. Over six or seven years now of doing it this way, and the very little success that I’ve had over that time is really debilitating. See, I’m now four months shy of being 80 years old.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Wow. You don’t look it.

Tom McBeath:
Jeez, it doesn’t help me that I don’t look it though. When they wanna hire a 70-year-old, I don’t look 70 even, so they say.

Garwin Sanford:
You don’t.

Tom McBeath:
So, one of the things that I have come to is that, having done this last piece of theater that I enjoyed so much and how much I have enjoyed doing theater in the past, I wanna do more. So, I’m gonna do every effort I can to do more theater, even if I have to go up and do it in small theater up in Prince George or Kelowna or Kamloops or here in Vancouver, which is a bit hard to do. Here in Vancouver, there are some nice smaller theaters that do interesting stuff. But too many of them sort of do their own stuff with their own people, their own writing, their own things, and it’s…

Garwin Sanford:
Close shop.

Tom McBeath:
… it’s hard to get your foot in the door for them, even though you let them know that you’re available. There are the few like Pacific Theater that do some really interesting things. But there are some really good actors, stage actors in this town, and not enough places for us all to work. And the Arts Club, which is the big theater, does mostly entertainment. And entertainment is a big part of what they’re looking to do. And they’ll spend their money to get people to come in on the entertainment level, not necessarily what I think theater…

Jacqueline Samuda:
Challenging.

Tom McBeath:
… has to be, or should be. And that’s what I wanna do. So, I don’t get the opportunity to do it in film, and I’m not a filmmaker myself, and I don’t have the will or the energy or the knowledge or the capacity to wanna make films. I’ve always been a bit lazy that way, and I figured it’s the work that I do will get me the work that I wanna do. And in theater, I can do that. So, I know enough people in town here that I can get the odd job, and I’m gonna make more of an effort to do that. To the point that I’m gonna actually do it. They call them community theater now. So, there’s one theater in town called United Players that does some really good stuff, and having started in amateur theater, I love the energy in the amateur theater. I recall how much fun it was to come in and do that stuff. And there was no people with their noses in the air, and there was no people judging what you did. And then you also went in to help paint the sets and to clean up and sell tickets and do all that kind of stuff. But United Players also does a lot of really interesting plays. And they can hire two equity people, so I’m gonna do Network with them this spring.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Oh wow, great!

Tom McBeath:
And playing Max Schollenberg. And that’s a really neat part.

Jacqueline Samuda:
I’ll come and see it.

Tom McBeath:
And there’s some, he has some really nice scenes with Faye Dunaway’s character, with his wife. There’s a couple of really nice theater scenes. The rest of it is something quite different, but that’ll be fun too. All the technical stuff with cameras and…

Jacqueline Samuda:
Excellent.

Tom McBeath:
… stuff. So, that’s kinda what I’m looking forward to. And that’s not gonna be putting a lot of effort into trying to get film and TV work, because the level of the auditions coming in now, you just look at them and go, “Well, you don’t need an actor for this.” You don’t need somebody who’s looking to, “Where does the character start? Where do they grow to and where do they come to?” There’s never an arc in this stuff, unless you’re auditioning for a character, a running character in a series where you do get a bit of an arc that you can play. So, I think that’s where I’m gonna, as long as the pea brain up here works, that’s where I’m gonna put my efforts in my final years.

Garwin Sanford:
Final years. I’m 70 now. So, I’ve been thinking about the last one-eighth of my life or whatever is left. What is it I wanna do? In my career. Because if I had the success rate that I’ve been having since COVID, in the beginning, I would have done some, I would have gone back to flying. Without a doubt. I would have been gone. It’s interesting. It’s a question that I’ve been facing too, is what’s next? What am I actually doing?

Jacqueline Samuda:
I’m going back to some writing, and writing used to be a big piece of my career, but having kids, I realized I was putting all my writing energy into writing our family life or something, because I just couldn’t do it at the same time. And fortunately, voice work is something that I can continue doing. So, I actually told my agent I was taking a little bit of a break for on-camera stuff because I was so disheartened by the kind of stuff that was coming through. It just wasn’t exciting, and I felt it wasn’t gonna do anything for me personally. It wasn’t gonna do anything particular for my resume, and so I just said, “Let’s just take a little bit of a break, but if something special comes…” And I’m still waiting. It’s been a few months, so it’s still nothing.

Garwin Sanford:
My agent’s been very patient with me, ’cause I keep saying no to so many things that come in. I say, “I’m sorry. I can’t. I can’t bring myself to read for that.”

Tom McBeath:
The way we do auditions now with that new system that took you a while to figure out, where you accept or decline, and all this stuff. And then, when you decline, the little box comes out, “Please give us a reason why.”

Jacqueline Samuda:
I guess my agent does…

Garwin Sanford:
They want the truth.

Jacqueline Samuda:
My agent does that for me, I think. Because I don’t see it.

Garwin Sanford:
You can’t handle the truth. That’s what gets you outta there.

Tom McBeath:
They say, “Why are you turning the role down?” “I’m too old, and I’m too cold.” To be a young actor nowadays, I think if you’ve got the right kind of spark for yourself, you’re gonna do well, but there’s so many film schools now, so many students coming outta those. There’s so much disappointment for so many people. Maybe it pushes them into other areas, though. Instead of becoming actors, they become something else.

Garwin Sanford:
The film school that I started was co-founded up at Langara College. We taught them how to produce. We made them do everything. So, they made two festival shorts, festival-ready shorts every eight months. We made 24 every eight months. But each student has to have two in that period of time. And so, many of them found that what they came in to learn wasn’t what they ended up liking. My daughter went in for writing, for example, and now she’s one of the best script supervisors in the city.

Tom McBeath:
She didn’t wanna be a pilot?

Garwin Sanford:
But she does actually. She keeps saying, “I’m gonna start flying again soon,” actually. And she wants to. But she started out as a writer, and then we exposed her to script supervising stuff, “That sounds OK.” And when she got out, she directed and wrote a piece, and then went, “You know, I’m gonna try this.” And within six months, a year-and-a-half after she started, she was script supervisor on Supergirl.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Amazing.

Garwin Sanford:
So, there was, she found her niche, and now she’s working constantly.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Fantastic.

Tom McBeath:
See, back in my theater school days, you weren’t allowed to do anything except be an actor.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Same.

Tom McBeath:
So, you couldn’t do a musical. You couldn’t work outside of the program either. And you’re an actor. You’re not a writer. You’re an actor.

Garwin Sanford:
Interesting.

Tom McBeath:
You’re not a director. You’re an actor. So, you never got to explore all that stuff, and that was what’s so interesting about studio, was they had to do everything. Now, we had to work backstage. We had to learn to do backstage so we could respect what backstage people did. You were being actor trained.

Jacqueline Samuda:
The only exception at York University–

Garwin Sanford:
This was at U of A. [University of Alberta]

Tom McBeath:
This was at U of A.

Garwin Sanford:
At 358, it was just the opposite.

Tom McBeath:
That’s no more. It’s not that way anymore.

Garwin Sanford:
OK. ‘Cause 358 was the opposite. We’d get four plays a term.

Tom McBeath:
We had to write stuff.

Garwin Sanford:
We had to write a piece. You had to do backstage. You crewed for the first year. You weren’t allowed on stage for the first year. You’re training to be an actor. They wouldn’t let you be on stage.

Jacqueline Samuda:
At York University, the exception was the New Play Festival. Brad Wright would write plays for the New Play Festival and I directed one of his plays at York. And then he, immediately after finishing university, was writing for TV, and came out to Vancouver shortly after.

Tom McBeath:
But I don’t know how that… I wonder, the young actors coming out, in the way the business works nowadays, I mean, we hit it really lucky here in this city. When the business hit here, the only actors in town were stage people. And there was only one agent, Marie Morton, who she had taken over from…

Garwin Sanford:
Lloyd–

Tom McBeath:
From a Toronto company.

Garwin Sanford:
Lodge. Jeri Lodge

Tom McBeath:
Was it Jeri Lodge?

Garwin Sanford:
She had used that name, Jeri Lodge. She was my agent, and then she changed. She goes, “Well, I don’t… I’m paying them to use the name.” So, she then became Marie Morton Townend.

Tom McBeath:
And all us actors just… we’d all signed up for her to do commercials. And you’d walk in, and you say, “Hi. Uh, would you be an agent for me?” She’d say, “Oh, yeah.”

Garwin Sanford:
Like having your grandmother for a minute.

Tom McBeath:
And then the business hit, and you would get phone calls from Marie saying, um, “Why am I calling you?” And I’d say, “Well, I don’t know, Marie.” And she said, “Just a minute,” and then she’d come back, and she’d, “Oh, yeah.” And then the other agents, they just started… Dozens and dozens came.

Jacqueline Samuda:
It’s a great place to work.

Tom McBeath:
And what do kids… I even thought then, there were so many theater schools going, putting out their 10 actors a season and only three or four of them would get into the biz, were good enough to get there. In theater or wherever. Um, but nowadays, there’s just so many film and TV schools, and act and theater schools that the number of students coming out, how could they do that? How can they survive? What’s it like? You’d have to be pretty special. Or determined.

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, determined.

Jacqueline Samuda:
The fact that theater is a place where we all get to… As an audience member, I just saw A Christmas Carol, and it was beautiful to be in the audience and be part of that experience. And it’s great to see that audiences I think are growing for theater, partly because there has been more of a chill on personal connections since COVID, and people are ready to connect again. So, that’s, that’s beautiful. And frankly, people are going to the movie theaters more. They’ve changed that experience, so that it’s more human and more fun. So, our work is always gonna be based on connection.

Tom McBeath:
Theater has been dying, they said, for hundreds of years. But it keeps…

Garwin Sanford:
Still there.

Tom McBeath:
… itself going somehow because there is a will by some people to wanna get to create stuff like that, to get up there and do it, to get involved in it. A group of actors that I saw two nights ago, or it was last night, put together an odd evening of The Winter’s Tale. Some of them have done a lot of Bard, so there were some Shakespeare actors there. But there were a few that weren’t Bard people, that haven’t done a lot of Shakespeare. But they did the first act of Winter’s Tale, and then they did sort of a modern version of what that might be like, with a couple. But they also had their children involved. Some of them, as they changed scenes, the kids would come on and, the way they adjusted the script, the kids would sing a tune of some kind that would fill in the space between that scene and the next scene. And it was all set with a Christmasy feel, with Christmas trees and stuff in the background.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Sweet.

Tom McBeath:
And it was, and it was done with no money, absolutely no money. And it was actors that wanted to do something, to create something.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Fantastic.

Tom McBeath:
So, I think somewhere in there, theater will always survive in some way or another.

Garwin Sanford:
Almost like Jay Brazeau and Kathryn Shaw in Doing Angry Actors. They were so upset with the paucity of roles that were out there, and they would get together, Suzanne Ristic and Jay Brazeau. And Kathryn Shaw would direct, and they put on some of the best pieces.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Oh, I’ll have to look for that.

Garwin Sanford:
They don’t do it though. It was something that I remember was striking for me at the time. I thought they were too tired of not being able to do anything. They created their own work. And that’s, again, where the heart of theater is the people’s desire to get out there and say something.

Jacqueline Samuda:
That’s right.

Tom McBeath:
Western Gold Theater does readings of stuff. I get involved in the public readings where they’ll actually do stand-up blocked readings with stuff, and invite an audience over a weekend. And those sell pretty well. But you do get to play around with the script for a week before the audience comes in.

Garwin Sanford:
And you get to have the script in your hand, and away you go. Nice. That’s really something.

Jacqueline Samuda:
This has been great for me, this conversation, to actually be in a room with other actors and have a conversation about acting. It’s been a pleasure.

Garwin Sanford:
It’s so isolating now. This has been a treat. Thank you, David. Kudos to Mr. David Read here.

Jacqueline Samuda:
Indeed.

Garwin Sanford:
Thank you guys for having me.

Tom McBeath:
Thanks for having us.