Actor Garwin Sanford warmed our hearts as the Tollan Narim in Stargate SG-1 and as Simon Wallace in Stargate Atlantis. He joins David on Dial the Gate to take your questions LIVE, discuss his time on Stargate, and share a little of his talent with his amazing collection of mask art!

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Timecodes
0:00 – Opening Credits
0:35 – Welcome and Episode Outline
02:13 – Guest Introduction
11:25 – Garwin’s Influences
15:35 – How old were you when you discovered acting?
19:36 – Garwin’s Artwork and Don S Davis
25:28 – A Story About Don S Davis
30:14 – The Stargate Feature Film
33:58 – The Tollan
35:11 – The Cast, Crew and Scripts
38:01 – Working with Amanda Tapping
40:56 – Going from SG-1 to Atlantis
45:44 – Narim Almost Returned — as a Goa’uld
54:18 – Narim: Romatic or Creepy Stalker?
55:44 – Tollan Imprint Device
59:44 – Is Garwin’s cat named Schrodinger?
1:00:22 – When was the last time you laughed so hard that you cried?
1:01:06 – Do you still have your pilot’s license?
1:04:28 – As a teacher, did you have a chance to watch someone grow into artists in their own?
1:05:44 – Working with Richard Dean Anderson
1:08:24 – How receptive were the writers to incorporating ideas?
1:12:09 – Discussing Garwin’s Artwork
1:27:17 – Don’t Compromise Your Eart
1:40:04 – Thank You, Garwin!
1:40:50 – Post-Interview Housekeeping
1:46:37 – End Credits

***

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TRANSCRIPT
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David Read:
Welcome to Episode 30 of Dial the Gate. My name is David Read. Thank you for sticking around for your Sunday afternoon/evening/morning for all you Europeans at this point. I have Garwin Sanford, Narim from SG-1 [and] Simon from Atlantis, standing by here in just a moment. So, what’s gonna happen with this particular episode is that we have a great deal of content to cover. I’m hoping that Garwin’s gonna be able to join us once again in 2021 to go into more detail about each of his individual shows. We’re definitely gonna talk about his characters here. But this man is a fascinating guy. And he has brought on several exhibits to discuss and show us. We’re gonna talk about some of his artwork. So, that’s gonna be happening here in just a moment. And we’re gonna also be inviting people in the YouTube gallery to ask your questions as well for Garwin. Because I bring him on, if you like Stargate and you wanna see more content like this on YouTube, it would mean a great deal if you click the Like button. It really makes a difference with YouTube’s algorithm and will definitely help the show grow its audience. So, please also consider sharing [this video as well] with the Stargate friend. And if you wanna get notified about future episodes, click that Subscribe icon. Giving the bell icon a click will notify you the moment a new video drops and you’ll get my notifications of any last-minute guest changes. This is key if you plan on watching live. And clips from this livestream will be released over the course of the next several days on both the Dial the Gate and GateWorld.net YouTube channels. Without further ado, Mr. Garwin Sanford.

Garwin Sanford:
Hello.

David Read:
Hello, my friend.

Garwin Sanford:
How are you doing? Good to see you.

David Read:
It’s good to see you. I feel like I’m on Masterpiece Theatre with you.

Garwin Sanford:
Welcome to Masterpiece Theatre. Today, we’re having… Boba Fett. Do you wear this Boba Fett or not?

David Read:
What did you say?

Garwin Sanford:
Is that Boba Fett behind you?

David Read:
This over here is… This is an Ancient spacesuit from Destiny, from Stargate Universe, but first, it was an Asgard in Stargate Atlantis. And then they repurposed it because according to Joseph Mallozzi, the R&D for the three suits… This is one of them… Was a 100 thousand a piece. That’s kind of ridiculous, don’t you think?

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, no kidding.

David Read:
The amount of money that they spend on shows, they should give it more to actors.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, they repurpose — I did a show called Eureka. And at one point I’m playing a senator, and they bring in — I’m supposed to walk in to see the entity, this big entity that they’ve had in that room in the vault, and they put me in a spacesuit, and it was from Mission to Mars. So, they shipped them around. And it had a cooling suit underneath and it had to have a fan to pump air in it so you could breathe. I can’t imagine how much that cost because it was — It took me an hour and a half to get into the suit.

David Read:
Please tell me it had fans on the inside of it.

Garwin Sanford:
They did, and it was messing up sound of course. I’d have to loop everything. So, I said, “Well, let’s just see what happens when you turn it off. Maybe I can do that.” 30 seconds later I couldn’t breathe because there’s just enough air inside this little. It was definitely a good thing, and you got very hot, so they had a big — The front pack on the suit was actually full of ice. And they run water through it which ran through tubes in your suit in like a tight bodysuit with all these — So, it cooled you off. It kept you from expiring from the heat.

David Read:
It’s easy to forget just how much heat out bodies generate. We are little thermal reactors and it’s just one of those wonders of nature that when you put us into a confined space, we find out just how toasty we are. Real quick.

Garwin Sanford:
Like a small theater.

David Read:
That’s exactly right.

Garwin Sanford:
500 people and all of a sudden it’s like, “Man, it’s warm in here.”

David Read:
That’s exactly right. When everyone’s all together. So, you and I have been talking here and there since this whole thing started. How are you doing? How are you managing to keep sane? And what’s been going on while we’ve been basically sheltering in place?

Garwin Sanford:
Well, since the quarantine started… That’s back in March 15th… I’ve literally — When the COVID up here in Vancouver dropped to zero cases for a while, after the first wave, I [could] actually see my family a little bit. My extended family. We could actually visit with social distancing in the backyard. We have a big deck and all that stuff so we would meet that way. But that really reduced and then it became — The spike went back. And when it went back up, I decided to pull myself out of the acting market completely because sets — The actors, none of them can wear masks. I wouldn’t wanna be responsible for giving this to somebody if I happen to be positive. I wouldn’t wanna get it and pass it on to friends or family. So, I basically quarantined myself for — I go out every two weeks to shop for groceries and get cat food and that’s it. So, literally I stay home, and I go out on the bike and stuff like that. I don’t go to — My thing, I used to go to the gym every day. And I hadn’t been in the gym for eight months so, I tried to do that stuff at home. Not as successful as I was at the gym but that sort of thing.

David Read:
There’s some things you can do, for sure.

Garwin Sanford:
As I mentioned to you before in the past, I decided to teach myself to speak French. I had high school French but that was almost useless. So, for eight months, every day, I work at French, and I’ve been — I’m happy with what’s happening with that. It’s been one of the bonuses of being shut in my house for eight months so that’s been good.

David Read:
Have you been doing any art?

Garwin Sanford:
Not really. I’ve been playing music. I’ve done a little bit of sketching but I haven’t done any endeavors that — My mass sculptures and stuff that we’re gonna talk about a little bit you mentioned, that all is — I have three kilns up on the sunshine coast, which is away from where I am on a property up there with a kiln shed and stuff. So, traveling back and forth for that isn’t gonna happen. So, I haven’t been doing any of those things. And the French has been [be]coming such an obsession. I’ve literally spent a good chunk of my day every day working on French. So, I should do any of the artwork but I have been playing the guitar, which is nice.

David Read:
There you go. That’s great. I’d love to hear you play it at some point. One of the… What do you call it… Cliches is how obsessed the French are about their French. Can you see how obsessed they are about their French?

Garwin Sanford:
I think the obsession comes from two things, in Canada particularly. I have personal experience with this because I come from Nova Scotia. And in Nova Scotia there was a real French English difficulty. Let’s put it that way. They went to war in Europe many times so the colonies would go to war as well. There’s areas in Nova Scotia that now still have large French populations. But we had a really bad period, the expulsion of the Acadians. The Acadians were rounded up after one of the wars. They were told, “Come on in and sign an affidavit saying that you will be loyal to the king and you can stay.” Well, when they did that, they took all the men and the young boys and they just arrested them, loaded them on ships and sent them to New Orleans, to France, to Jamaica, somewhere else. There were three or four places. And they just literally took the French population and expelled them. And when the ship was full, they would just stop. [If] it was in the middle of a family, they didn’t care. They treated…

David Read:
When was this, Garwin? 1900? 19th century?

Garwin Sanford:
No, this would be late 16[00s], early 1700s. Because they started the French Port Royal. I think that was settled in the mid-1600s. And then afterwards the English arrived and then there was a fair amount of infighting. But what happened in Nova Scotia is that many of the communities that are French — I know some people with very complicated French names that they still have to this day, but they speak very little French. And in some communities, like in my hometown there was a person that lived down the street, and their name was Boutilier. But of course, that’s an English version of Bouteiller. So, it’s the same thing as in New Orleans. They’ll have Beauchamp instead of “Beauchamp.” So, they’ve anglified it and they’ve lost their language. So, I can understand why in Quebec they realize they’re surrounded by a whole English country and that English country then can dominate and they can slowly lose their language because they’ve seen it happen in some places. So, they’ve enacted laws to keep French that way. And in France, they even have the Académie Française or something. It’s an academy that protects the language from the influx of the Anglo-versions of their things like hot dog and all the things they get… Hamburger. They still use them, but they will come up with an official word so that it keeps French.

David Read:
So, they have a replacement.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes.

David Read:
Because these words, especially in English, are just growing left and right. You just can’t keep up with it. That would be a struggle.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, the word computer in French, “ordinateur,” and in Quebec that’s shortened to “mon ordi,” my computer. But they’ve given it a word of its own. So, as technology moves in, they look for this. However, in Quebec, “c’est le fan là,” they take the word, and they make it “fan” instead of “fan” but it means they’re incorporating those words. And I completely understand why they would wanna protect their language.

David Read:
Of course. It’s who you are so absolutely.

Garwin Sanford:
It’s their culture, yeah.

David Read:
Garwin, thank you again for coming on. I really wanted to know where you’re from… Obviously, now we know specifically… But how that influenced you as a person and who in your life… the people who have influenced you the most? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Garwin Sanford:
Nova Scotia is a very — Especially when I was born and grew up, it was a province that was a Have Not province as they call it. In Canada they call them Have provinces and Have Not provinces. So, there are provinces that make lots of money, their economy is very strong, and then they have Have Not provinces. And in Nova Scotia they were an economic powerhouse until they dredged out the St. Lawrence River and allowed ship traffic to come from Europe all the way up to Ottawa and into the interior of Ontario. Up until then, the boats stopped in Nova Scotia so there was quite and industry, and the shipping from the boats… They would land and then all the economy, that was based on shipping it from there into the interior. So, they went from a Have province to Have Not province. And when I was growing up, that was one of the biggest things. People didn’t have a lot of money. It was subsistence living in a way. And the person that really does have the strongest influence on my life was my mother. I was raised by a single mother and then she remarried when I was about 10. My stepfather was really — He took on a whole family, which was really something. There were four of us, so he took on a whole family. But she was a very, very, very strong woman. And she just passed away October 2nd. And that has left a bit of a hole, I must say. She was 94 so she lived a long life.

David Read:
She hung in there. Good for her.

Garwin Sanford:
She was the biggest influence in my life and allowing me to develop because I turned to her for everything as well. Because I didn’t have a father figure. So, she was really instrumental in who I became. It allowed the feminine side of me to grow and develop. And I consider those to be some of my greatest strengths, that side of me.

David Read:
Was she artistic, too?

Garwin Sanford:
No, not particularly at all.

David Read:
Isn’t that interesting?

Garwin Sanford:
Not at all. In fact, neither was I in any way until I became an adult. That’s the thing about the philosophy of my whole life, I think. We live with our parents, and they define who we are for the first part of our life. And then when you walk away from that, you can either let them define who you’re gonna be with their expectations maybe, or with their demands on what you become, or they’re suggesting and saying, “, No, you’ve gotta become this or that in your life et cetera.” And she never did that with me ever. She just supported the choices I made. And when I made those choices, I began to realize that that was the gift, is that I get to make my own choices and begin to decide what of my youth I wanna carry with me and what doesn’t work for me. May have worked for her but doesn’t work me. And I can let go of those things without feeling guilty and moving on. So, that was one of the gifts she gave [me], was allowing me to have that, instilling enough loving in me, unconditional love, to give me the confidence to go out and possibly fall flat on my face and know there’d always be someone to help pick me up.

David Read:
But it’s OK to fall flat on your face.

Garwin Sanford:
In fact, [inaudible] — It keeps you humble, and it also means you’re learning something. Because if you fall flat on your face, it’s because you didn’t quite know it. That means you’re going to learn, right? That you’re gonna grow. So, that’s the big one. So, she’s been the major influence on my life without a doubt.

David Read:
How old were you when you discovered the craft? Specifically acting in this case. “Well, there are a number of crafts that he’s engaged [in].” “I was six years old, and I knew I wanted to build my own house and so I did.”

Garwin Sanford:
That’s you?

David Read:
That’s you. I just don’t know what age.

Garwin Sanford:
I say no.

David Read:
You built your own house. You’re a pilot. You are a jack of all trades.

Garwin Sanford:
I consider myself… My birth really. The beginning of my life is when I went… My first year to university. And I was the first person in my family to go to university. My brother and sister both are professionals. Accountants and lab tech, and became a sales rep for medical equipment, et cetera. They moved on. They were very successful. But I went to university. And I began to realize was — What I learned in university was, they gave me the ability to have an analytical mind to question and to reason and to think things through, and to actually do research other than just on Facebook now. You actually do research. You dig into stuff and find out from various sources, from various types of places and try to find peer related… Et cetera. Because I was Mr. science brain. This was my thing. I was not an artistic person in any way. I’ve never picked up an instrument. I never drew anything. In school you draw stuff, but I never was drawn — I spent my youth, basically misspent, in a pool hall, literally avoiding work. I was an insecure and very lazy person, I think, at that time.

David Read:
Why?

Garwin Sanford:
Because it was…

David Read:
Is this your own way of rebelling?

Garwin Sanford:
I don’t know if it was rebelling or not. I think it was because I had a lack of focus. I didn’t know where I wanted to go. I wasn’t sure what I wanna do with my life. So, I just…

David Read:
Can’t blame you.

Garwin Sanford:
I just knew that by time I get out of high school… I was reaching the end of high school… That I did not wanna do a 9-to-5 job. That much I knew. So, I went, “Well, university then seems to be the choice. Get good marks in high school, go to university and see what that does for me.” And that’s what I ended up doing. And the old adage, “Education broadens your horizons,” which they’d always say to you and I never… I went, “What does that even mean?” But this was actually the truth. I went there and it opened up worlds to me. My friends that I met there — One of my roommates in university was a cartoonist. He loved to draw cartoons. He was very good at it. And I went, “Oh,” and then I went — So, I started to try to do that. Other friends of mine were carving in wood and some of them were playing guitar, and I went, “Oh, wow, look at this stuff.” I had not been exposed to any of that where I grew up. Nova Scotia… One of the things about living in a subsistence environment is that it’s this. Everything’s about just making money to just put the roof over your head and put food on the table. And there is nothing left over after that. In a lot of cases, it’s very working-class, very focused on just survival. Subsistence. So, as a result of that, you don’t have those exposures. And I’m living in a rural setting in Nova Scotia where there were no examples. There was no… Nobody I knew did art. Nobody I knew played music where I grew up. Whereas in Cape Breton, my friends who were in the same situation, they turned to music. I think it was their French heritage. They play fiddle, they sing, they play guitar, they’re always hanging out together singing and playing. And that exposure to those people in Cape Breton, for example, from my friends in university opened up all this for me at the age of 17-18. And by the time I was 19, I started to try to pursue those things because I saw them doing it. Big, big thing.

David Read:
So, this is Sitting Bull. These are all First Nations, right?

Garwin Sanford:
Yes, it was — When I was living in Los Angeles… I went down there in 1989-90, and I stayed for four or five years… I started to work in pen and ink, and mainly because of Don Davis. I had been doing — Yes. I saw him on TV the other day and it really teared me up. I miss that guy a lot. He was a dear, dear man. And what happened was [inaudible] I’ve always been buying a pencil since university, and I’d never moved beyond that medium. I just loved working in pencil. It was what I knew, and I continued to do that. And Don Davis — I went down to Los Angeles because an agent had seen a couple of my shows. They saw Wiseguy, which was a TV show about an undercover cop. And Ray Sharkey was one of the guest artists. He was for the first season and then they killed him off. And in the season opener or the season closer, I can’t remember which one it was, they brought him back in those lead’s dreams. So, when they did that, I was in that episode. The guy was in an insane asylum, and I played one of the crazy people in the insane asylum and I deal with him. And that was — James Whitmore Jr. was directing, and he fought to get me in that role. I was a young Canadian actor with not a lot of experience at the time, and he convinced them when I auditioned that I was the only one to do this role. Mainly because the casting person — In those days, you showed up half an hour before the audition, got the sides, and you just read them. And as I was reading them, I thought, “OK, I’m gonna get really close to the reader,” because it’s a very intimate scene. And when I got in there, there was a boardroom table that was like eight feet across.

David Read:
Of course.

Garwin Sanford:
And the guy’s a bit of a Loonie. So, when the audition started, I went and sat on the table and crossed my legs and scratched my way across the table sitting on the table until I got really close to her and did the scenes. And he loved this, so he fought to get me in this role. They said I looked too much like Ken Wahl who was the lead in the show. He said, “No, he doesn’t.” But anyway, he gave me an opportunity to do a role that was way beyond my experience at that time. It was a great guest star role, and it was really — I ate it up. I had a lot of fun with it. So, an agent saw that episode and the same week I did a miniseries with Farrah Fawcett, and that was one of my first major stars with — In the second half I play her boyfriend and I get her pregnant. And it was this… Small Sacrifices it was called. She plays Diane Downs who ended up shooting her children because she was in love with some guy. It’s based on a true story. So, these characters were real. Anyway, the agent had seen both of those in the same week and went, “Who is this guy?” And they actually flew up to Vancouver and met with me and said, “We’d love to sponsor you. You can come down. We’ll help you get your papers, your visas. So, if you wanna join… If you wanna come, we’ll do that.” And I said, “Hey, why not.” So, I went around really quickly. And I didn’t have a place to stay yet so I was literally gonna get a place and I called Don, and I said, “Hey, I’m gonna be in town at a hotel. I’m looking for a place,” and Don goes, “Well, girl, why don’t you come stay with me? I got a second bedroom.” He was filming Twin Peaks at the time. So, I stayed with Don. And I stayed there for a few months in Van Nuys. I had to get out. Van Nuys was like… In June was 102 degrees. It was just… I just went, “I can’t be here Don, I’m sorry.” So, I moved to Santa Monica and got a place there. But when I first got there, Don was… I was drawing with something and Don walks in one time and sets a little package in front of me and goes, “This is an old set of radiograph pens of mine. You can have those if you want. You could maybe try working in pen and ink.” So, that’s what started me working in pen and ink, was Don Davis. Again, all of my… All the things that got me into art were always somebody else dropping things in my lap and just saying, “Here, why don’t you try this?”

David Read:
Pushes you. Some people just have instincts about us, “You know what? You may hate… You may suck at this, but you may enjoy sucking at it.”

Garwin Sanford:
Who was it? Is it…? I can’t remember if it was Kurt Vonnegut that said… I can’t remember if it was him or not… Somebody said, “It doesn’t matter. Just do it.” It doesn’t matter if you get good at it but it’s the process. It’s finding a way to express yourself and some… And it doesn’t matter what the end result is. It’s the process.

David Read:
There is a quote that I have always had rattling around on my head for about 10-15 years now, “If you can’t learn to do something well, then learn to enjoy doing it poorly.” And it’s from a demotivating series but at the same time I think there’s something true to that. If you are in a position where you are gonna do something, why are you not enjoying it or finding some way to enjoy it because it’s only gonna increase your odds in actually doing it better. It really is.

Garwin Sanford:
You’re gonna get better. It doesn’t matter what the end… Where you end up. You’re just gonna get better. That’s just the way it is. Enjoy.

David Read:
While you were living with — We have some wi-fi trouble. While you were living with Don… I want you to tell this story… He was — See? He knows it.

Garwin Sanford:
I know which story you’re talking about. I told it once at a convention.

David Read:
You did. With Ruby.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes.

David Read:
He was auditioning for Hook.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, he had. He’d already done it. He had the job. I can’t remember… I think I knew that he had the job, but I’ve been — I’ve moved to LA and two weeks later I get a recurring role in a series pilot that Tom Selleck was producing called Revealing Evidence with Stanley Tucci and Mary Page Keller. And it was gonna be filmed in Hawaii. And unfortunately, most of my stuff was gonna be in Los Angeles because we were lawyers at an office with Mary Page Keller and Stanley Tucci was a cop. But half of it was filmed in Hawaii so I knew I’d go there sometimes. I thought, “I’ve been there two weeks and Tom Selleck…” I had to get my visas. I hadn’t even… I barely started the process when I got down there. And of course, a letter from… I had a letter from Farrah Fawcett [and] one from Bill Bixby, because I worked with them and, “Hey, I’m moving to the States. I need letters to help me get into the country.” And then Tom Selleck writes a letter saying, “We need to film… He starts filming in two weeks. We need his visa right away.” And of course, bingo. So, I thought, “Hey, I’m doing pretty good. I’m here a couple of weeks.” And I come home one day and turn on the answering machine, and on comes, “Hello Don. This is…” And it’s his agent calling saying, “Your breakfast meeting with Steven Spielberg, Dustin Hoffman and…” Who was the other one?

David Read:
Dustin Hoffman? Robin Williams.

Garwin Sanford:
“…Robin Williams is on for tomorrow morning. So, it’ll be nine o’clock at…” and they told where. So, I went, “Oh my God.” So, I sit down and I’m waiting for Don to come home. And Don comes home and I said, “Oh, there’s a message for you on the machine. I thought it was… I was checking messages.” So, I watch him as he turns it on and he listens and he makes a little note and reaches to push the erase button and I scream, “Stop! What are you nuts?” You could dine out on this for years. Ever you come home with somebody and say, ‘Excuse me, I just wanna check my messages,’ and push that. Come on!” Don goes, “Oh, don’t be silly,” he pushes, erase. But that’s who Don was. Don was just the most humble man and such a sweet guy. But I still — That story still makes me laugh because it’s just a story about who he was but also it put me in my place pretty quickly.

David Read:
It’s so easy for us to take ourselves so seriously and everything and he just never did. He fell ass-backwards into being an actor. It wasn’t really anything that he set out to do. He set out — He worked with his hands. He carved. He drew. Those were the things that defined him. General Hammond and everything else was a bonus. And we’re better for it.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, Don started — When I met him, he was stunt doubling for Dana Elcar on MacGyver. That’s one of my first episodes of MacGyver. He was stunting for Dana. That’s how I met him. And he had been a professor at UBC, the University of British Columbia. And then someone said, “Well, Don, you’re a pretty physical guy. You might wanna try…” So, he did stunts first. And then they gave him a part in something, a small part, and then they went, “Hey, this guy can act.”

David Read:
Yeah, he can.

Garwin Sanford:
He never even studied acting. This is like — And he carved. He carved in wood. He would do animal life. He did drawings. He did — He was a very inspiring guy. And very quiet, very humble. Just went about it like, “Oh, just me,” and never ever touted [sic!] his own horn… Tooted his own horn or tattered his accomplishments at all. And you’d go in and in his studio there’d be all this art on the walls and every bit of it was his. Beautiful, beautiful pieces of…

David Read:
You’d never know it by watching Stargate.

Garwin Sanford:
And paintings. And carvings. It was really something.

David Read:
Do you have any of his art?

Garwin Sanford:
No, I don’t.

David Read:
I’ve always wanted to try and get a hold of it. There is some out there. His website, donsdavisart.com, is not around anymore. They’ve discontinued it. OK. So, you met him on MacGyver. Had you seen Stargate in the theaters when they originally [came] out?

Garwin Sanford:
[inaudible] Yeah. The original? The very first one?

David Read:
I’m sorry. I lost you. Yeah. So, the feature film. You saw it at the theaters?

Garwin Sanford:
The very first one? The first one? Yeah. I didn’t see Continuum.

David Read:
No, I mean back in the day in the 90s.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes, I saw that.

David Read:
So, you saw the first film. What’d you think? Did you think that the film had a promise for a franchise with nearly 400 episodes in it?

Garwin Sanford:
It didn’t dawn on me. I enjoyed the movie. I did enjoy it, and it made you think and whatever. But it was just a one-off, another science fiction show, and I didn’t think there’d be another movie, ever. The first time I heard about the series is because it was filming in Vancouver. But I hadn’t auditioned for it, and it wasn’t until — I was shooting in South Africa, and I got a call from my agent just before — I’d stay there about a month. I shot for a couple of weeks and then the director and I went on a little walking safari for a couple of weeks. We didn’t shoot anything. Just took pictures. We had a guy that took us around and we went and spent a couple of weeks in the bush. When I came back, I was gonna fly out in a couple of days and the agent phoned and said, “They’ve made you an offer for a character in Stargate.” And I said, “Oh,” and he goes, “So, it’s apparently a love interest for Amanda Tapping’s character.” So, I said, “Whoa, well, I’m leaving so they can’t get the script to me.” There was no emails. There was no sending emails at that time. It was just… It wasn’t the same as it is now where you get everything instantly. So, there was no way to get me the script, and I kept thinking, “Oh, geez.” So, I flew to London and then had a layover, discovered a tick in my leg and had to go get it cut out when I was waiting, and then flew home and picked up the script the night I got back. The next day was wardrobe call, and the very next day was my first day of shooting. So, I had a whole half a day to prep for the first day of shooting. So, I didn’t know anything about the character. I didn’t really have a lot of time to consider how he was gonna unfold. I just had to go with my instincts. And William Gereghty, Bill, was directing. So, I said to Bill, “I know it’s gonna sound a little strange,” the old cliché of “I’m alien, not using contractions.” I said, “I know it’s hackneyed. But this guy, he’s so…” My take on this culture is very formal. They’re just very formal. Very reserved. And the familiarity factor, they’re a bit pulled back. And then it gives him somewhere to go when he opens up to Amanda in a way, and when he goes outside and he sees animals for the first time in his life, et cetera. All that sort of thing. So, we played with that a little, and Tobin Bell and myself and Bill talked about how we would [find] the Tollan race and what they were as people. So, we just did it with a wing and a prayer as we went, trusting our instincts. And Bill was really supportive about it. So, we just ended up doing it. And of course it was one episode. That was all there’s gonna be and “Thank you very much.” We disappeared off because the Nox take us away and “Bye-bye.” And then the next thing I know I have another episode, and then the third episode. And I keep forgetting that’s only been three episodes.

David Read:
Of SG-1, yeah.

Garwin Sanford:
But now being attached to Amanda’s character so intimately, that is why he’s, I think, survived so well. Only three episodes out of 400. It’s not really — It wouldn’t — So, I’m pleased that he resonated somehow.

David Read:
Well, I think it’s also — I think that you need to give yourself a little bit more credit than that. I think that what you guys were achieving was the first instance of us coming across a technologically advanced species that wasn’t trying to kill us but that also didn’t want anything to do with us. And that had to have been frustrating for that team because, “We’re needing allies out there. This threat is looming. And they don’t wanna help.” And then, begrudgingly through circumstances and Skaara coming to Tollana and everything else, we get roped into things with each other where they do discover that, “OK. They are primitives but they’re nice primitives.”

Garwin Sanford:
But we still didn’t wanna give them the technology. It’s only because Goa’uld threatening my home world.

David Read:
Exactly right.

Garwin Sanford:
That and then the Curia giving up the ghost…

David Read:
Don’t spoil it. You’re going too fast.

Garwin Sanford:
“Wait, wait!” OK.

David Read:
How was that cast and crew and quality of the scripts from Season One to Season Five?

Garwin Sanford:
I think the scripts got better.

David Read:
Scripts got better.

Garwin Sanford:
I think so. There are always — One of the things I liked about that is that they cite — The reason why that show resonates so well isn’t just because of it being otherworldly and sci-fi. [It] is that they had archetypes. If you’re looking — There’s the Han Solo hero. There are archetypes and they drew them very well. We have the science nerd guy, and we’ve got the strong woman character, and et cetera. So, they resonate with us because like Joseph Campbell talks about hero’s journey…

David Read:
That’s right.

Garwin Sanford:
…And Star Wars… Lucas admits that his stories were taken right out of that compendium. And that’s when they — Bill Moyers interviews Joseph Campbell and did that series of interviews at Lucas ranch, at Skywalker whatever it’s called.

David Read:
Yes, Skywalker Ranch.

Garwin Sanford:
And I’m a big fan of Joseph Campbell’s take on the warrior and the sage and the mage and all the things that go on. So, that was one of the reasons why it resonated, I think, so well is that — And then I thought the stories got better. They did. Because with the wealth that cast brought to the stories themselves, the writers that recognized what was being brought and would expand on that. So, it was a real marriage of charisma and the talent of the cast plus the writers recognizing what was there and what they had and would run with it. So, there’s — If you’re gonna have success in the business, I think those things are necessary and those things they had in spades and they were good with the science of it. The sets were good. And the cast, I gotta admit — I worked with Richard on two MacGvyers. I guest starred on two MacGyvers. I did Booker with Christopher Judge. Both of us had recurring roles on that show in Vancouver. I knew of Amanda Tapping. I hadn’t met Michael before all this started. And the chemistry that they were able to pull of between themselves on screen was, again, another one of those — And you were talking about taking yourself seriously. There was a lot of humor in that show as well.

David Read:
What is it… So, you hadn’t met Amanda yet.

Garwin Sanford:
No.

David Read:
And then Day One, you’re supposed to go and say, “Oh, I have a crush,” at minimum. At most, “You’re my guardian angel.” How do you flip that switch on? Was it just easy with Amanda because it’s Amanda Tapping for crying out loud?

Garwin Sanford:
Exactly. First of all, we didn’t actually — Luckily, there’s been many shows where I had done… Where my first scene with the female lead was the love scene. It’s like, “Oh God, could we just get to know each other a little bit first?”

David Read:
“Can I buy a cup of coffee? Please give us an hour.”

Garwin Sanford:
The love scenes were very awkward. You get choreographed and they’re just not comfortable. But anyway, we did… I believe we actually did the saving on the planet first, so I didn’t have to jump right into that. We get to know each other a little. And the beauty of it is, is that Amanda is such a consummate professional and an amazing actor. It’s one of the few TV sets that I’ve on where the lead will say, “At lunchtime, do you wanna work on the scenes?” So, we’d go to the trailer and all while we’re eating lunch talking about what we wanted to do, rehearsing, finding connections, finding ways in to make the script more real, to make… Find out what we wanted to do with each other, and then played when we get there. And every episode I did, she was the same. Five years later, if it was episode five — I can’t remember which season.

David Read:
Season Five.

Garwin Sanford:
Season Five. She was doing exactly the same thing. She had not changed a wit. And when you do that kind of schedule, a lot of actors start getting comfortable and a little lazy and they’ll just go… And they start to rely on the tricks. Because you do get tired.

David Read:
Of course.

Garwin Sanford:
I got a series regular on a show called Hawkeye and I was exhausted by the end of that seven months. I was really, really tired. Because you work non-stop if you take it seriously. Your days off, you’re learning lines for the next week. And your lunch time and every evening until you fall asleep is learning lines for the next episode while you’re filming this episode [inaudible]. And you can understand why they find shortcuts and rely on the tricks where you’re not really doing it. You’re just — I call it schmacting.

David Read:
Schmacting?

Garwin Sanford:
When you use technique to get cast.

David Read:
Calling it in?

Garwin Sanford:
Exactly. She’s never ever done that. I’ve never seen her do that once. So, 90 percent of my scenes were with here and she was always like that. So, it was a joy to do. There was no doubt. And made it so easy and easeful. So, it was a delight. It really was.

David Read:
What was that like going from SG-1 to Atlantis? Was it exactly the same? Was it, “This is clearly a sibling to the other one?” It’s got a different vibe to it. Torri’s a different actress. Again, a love interest. Were there any standout differences? A, you have one line in your first episode, “No kidding.” So, there’s that.

Garwin Sanford:
“No kidding.” Or something like that. Or tell me … I can’t remember what the line was, but it said, “Your cell provider is out of service. Out of range.”

David Read:
“Your caller is out of the area.”

Garwin Sanford:
I said, “No kidding.” Whatever I said, it was one line. So, it was a great easeful way of getting into it. I just showed up and looked at the television. And I had no idea where they were taking — And I don’t think they did either at the time. They thought… They had liked what I did on Stargate, obviously, on SG-1. So, the producers turned to that, and they offered me that role as well and I just went, “Right, that sounds wonderful. I’d love to do it.” And then the next episode I do, they’re dying. They’re all dying, and the aliens [that] were seeing them die give them their dream in their head to ease their passing, so they’ll be happy. And she wanted to come home, so she sees me, and we have a loving — That was really fun. Again, it was nice. With me, I divorced myself from my old characters. So, Simon was completely different from me. He was not anywhere near his… How he was operating… As Narim operated. They weren’t the same. So, I didn’t see that parallel. But the fans didn’t see that quite as the same.

David Read:
“That’s the guy.” It’s like, “Vancouver’s only so big.”

Garwin Sanford:
I don’t think it was that as much as they thought it would be OK that it was a different show and that people would be fine with it. But I think they found themselves in two situations. One was having me as her husband, which is what it was originally. I was supposed to be her husband. In the first episode that was me as the husband. That’s what I was told. And then it became a boyfriend. Even after she came home, the next one became it, I found out later, “Oh, you’re the boyfriend and you’re dumping her.” And that was the last episode I did, was when she comes back for real and I say, “Well, you’ve been gone for a long time. I met somebody else.”

David Read:
“And I’ve grown a lot of hair.”

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah. I had been filming something at that time, and I couldn’t cut it anyway. So, they just let it be. It didn’t matter.

David Read:
Exactly.

Garwin Sanford:
Showed that time has passed.

David Read:
We found out that he had his own life. He had patients. He had research. You can’t necessarily just sit around and wait for someone… I don’t care who you are… To come home. Sooner or later, you move on.

Garwin Sanford:
Especially when she just took off without even goodbye. So, anyway, I think they found themselves in a situation where A, the fanbase, was not that keen on it. There had been a small but vociferous, vocal group who were saying, “He’s the same guy. What’s going on?” And then they realized that it also hampered Elizabeth Weir’s life. If she’s gonna have any love interest, she’s cheating on her husband or her boyfriend back on Earth, et cetera. So, I think there were a lot of things. So, what are they gonna do? Take me with her? And there was nothing for my character to do. It wasn’t. And they weren’t about to bring on another series regular just because — So, they killed… They had me dump her. And then in an episode that never… This part never aired. I was only told about it… Is that she’s reading the newspaper and sees my picture, and it says I died in a car crash.

David Read:
There is an episode in I believe Season Three called The Real World. And in The Real World she is hallucinating with none other than Alan Ruck, and he says that…

Garwin Sanford:
Her mother as well.

David Read:
Yes, that’s correct. And she fabricated the illusion of Atlantis in the Pegasus Galaxy to get over the fact that he had died in a crash. So, technically Simon’s still alive. So, you know what? You could be the next doctor in SG4 or whatever it’s gonna be and it would still be perfectly consistent.

Garwin Sanford:
And technically, so is Narim.

David Read:
Yes. OK. So, we’re gonna go there now. Thank you for bringing that up to me. So, in Episode 1 of Dial the Gate I teased that you had told me something during one of our previous conversations that was very interesting in terms of a direction that the show may have gone. The last time that we see him he’s standing in front of an exploding city. And we hear a message sent to Earth that the Tollan are leaving the system in ships and they’re being knocked out of the sky. “I just wanted you to know that…” And then — Exactly. And then revealed that there was more that had been planned. Can you please share that with everyone? At least in terms of what you knew.

Garwin Sanford:
I went to the 100th episode party. And it was fun. They invited people that had been involved with the show to the 100th episode party. It was a big deal. We all got little packages. A little bag with a small Stargate in it, with the pictures of the cast. We got a bunch of little prezzies that were all — And a copy of the 100th episode, et cetera. So, I thought, “Oh geez. Someday I’ll auction this off with my script from the episode and make hundreds.” But anyway, we’re sitting there talking and the producers came up and were saying, “Oh by the way, just so you know, we’re thinking of having Narim come back as a Goa’uld.” And I went, “What a great arc. I would absolutely love to do that.”

David Read:
“I’m already working on my French.”

Garwin Sanford:
So I went, “Oh, this would be something.” I said, “That would be tremendous.” But it never happened. So, they just never got around to it. They decided not to do it. And I believe I heard from you that in one of the books or the cartoons or the story, they actually did it. Was [it] Zipacna they put in me?

David Read:
It was Klorel.

Garwin Sanford:
Oh, Klorel.

David Read:
Fittingly enough.

Garwin Sanford:
Of course.

David Read:
Narim — Klorel had a bone to pick with the Tollan, and he picked Narim, knowing that Earth… He was the closest to Earth. That actually makes a lot of sense.

Garwin Sanford:
I would have loved to have the cat walk through the gate and then I walk through the gate and Amanda goes, “Narim,” and I go, “Amanda.”

David Read:
“Samantha.”

Garwin Sanford:
Yes, of course. But it would have been great fun. It never happened but I thought that would have been — Because the thing about that character was, in the first episode I decided to make him very gently. I call him milk toast. He really was. A milk toast. And non-violent, and completely just honorable and full of integrity and such an antithesis of the macho man. And then the second episode I did, I’d say… Well, basically I was a butler… “Come this way. Come this way. This way.” Because it was the tri-all . The tri-all.

David Read:
Tri-AD.

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, I know. Michael Shanks goes, “The tri-all.”

David Read:
“So, it’s kind of like a tri-all? I’m unfamiliar with the term.”

Garwin Sanford:
He says like, “A tri-all.” Anyway, that became my name for Triad after that. That whole episode was — My character didn’t really grow at all. There was — They’d set it up and we moved forward from there. But in the last episode — I’ve been filming for about three days, I think, and the producers… We were sitting there talking. I believe it was Michael Greenburg. Michael said, “You know, we were a little worried, Garwin. Because this is the largest guest star we’ve ever written up to this point. And you kind of drive this episode along in many places.” Because most of the time the guest [inaudible] — the team is there. I was involved in a lot of scenes in it. And they said, “And you kind of drive this engine a bit and we’re a little concerned — But he’s such a milk toast. It’s just gonna be — What’s gonna happen?” And of course, what happened for Narim at that point, I understood that as an actor that I can’t do that. I had to step up and move forward and make it more dynamic. But after three days, they said… They had the courage to say to me… They said, “Well, but we should have known you’re doing… Just keep doing what you’re doing. We’re really happy.”

David Read:
Absolutely. He’s completely blindsided throughout this episode. Even O’Neill says, “Would you get your head out of your ass?”

Garwin Sanford:
Yes. Because I can’t believe… We’re so honorable, it’s against everything of our culture to do this piece of… This betrayal. It’s so traitorous. You can’t even conceive of it. It’s not even in our language this type of thing could exist. Since we had that issue with killing off other people because we gave them technology, we had been really, really careful about stuff like this. So, anyway, that was… For me, it was the nice arc for the character at this point. But take that one extra step would have been astounding. To take him all the way to the antithesis of who he was in the first episode, having chlorella especially inside of him would have been… Holy cow. So, I regret that that never happened because it would have been a complete arc. I love those arcs. There’s a movie called Les Enfants du Paradis by Marcel Carné. It’s a French movie made in the occupation in the Second World War. And it’s a story where the characters at the beginning, Baptiste and Florence [sic!]. Garance and somebody else. Those characters start off as one way and within the arc of the show almost all of them except for two become the antithesis of the character at the beginning of the show. Tremendous character arcs. It’s one of the best movies I’ve ever seen. So, I recommend it to anybody. Children of Paradise is the English version.

David Read:
Children of Paradise. War does that to people.

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah. Well, that movie was — I can go on about that movie. It was filmed during the occupation. Secretly. They did it — The Germans wouldn’t be allowing them to do this thing. How they got away with this, I have no idea. They shot this film while Germany occupied France. And for me the movie is Garance, who is the main character. She’s the female lead, one of the leads. She is France. And that’s what’s happening around them. It’s a grat story on its own but there’s so much symbolism about what’s happening to France and how the people are changing to deal with the occupation and what’s happened to them. Anyway, blah blah blah.

David Read:
No, I think that’s valid. So, the other thing about Narim that always stands out to people, especially with that character, not only he’s the one that is — To borrow from what you’re saying, he is Tollana. The other part of that is, he’s still damned arrogant, just like all of them. “This cannot be happening. Our technology is impenetrable. We are technologically better than all of you put together.” And it blindsides him when he realizes that the Curia, their government, has been lying to them. And all the chips are down and everything that he has stood for is gone. “So, you know what? Why not take one of our weapons and point it at a building and blow it up knowing that everything inside of it is exactly what we do not stand for. Weapons of mass destruction.” What an arc.

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, exactly. And I was very happy with that ending. He could have escaped but he said, “Well, I’m the one who did this.”

David Read:
“I pushed the button.”

Garwin Sanford:
So, he could at least stay and die with them or whatever is gonna happen but “I’m not about to abandon them.” So, that was a very satisfying ending for that character I felt.

David Read:
Absolutely.

Garwin Sanford:
There was something very funny I saw just actually about a month ago. I saw something online that said, “Is Narim a romantic character or a creepy stalker?” And I started thinking about it and I went, “There’s a definitely a case to be made for a creepy stalker.”

David Read:
“Narim, is that my voice?” “I was hoping you wouldn’t notice.” “Well, what’d you think?”

Garwin Sanford:
Creepy. And some people weighed in saying, “Yeah, creepy stalker,” and some people weighed in the romantic guy. But there is a fair amount of evidence to say, “Yeah, I could make a case for him to being the creepy stalker.”

David Read:
Who knows what kind of technology the Tollan didn’t have. There’s probably a holographic Sam waiting off in the wings somewhere that he hoped she wouldn’t notice either.

Garwin Sanford:
That’s scary.

David Read:
When you fall in love with technologically and developmentally inferior species, you can get away with pretty much anything.

Garwin Sanford:
Let’s not go with our history there.

David Read:
I know, I’m playing it more light than that but yes, absolutely. You’re right. I have some fan questions and then I wanna come back around to your art.

Garwin Sanford:
OK.

David Read:
Claireburr, “The Tollan emotional imprint device,” from the first episode, sharing what he feels about her, to Sam, “seems like such a wonderful idea to me. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on [how] it was used in the show and how you think such a device would affect us in real life?” It was used once and that was it.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes, in fact you had to remind me because I forgot.

David Read:
I did too. Let’s just say if there’s a person that you dislike, “OK, here’s how much I dislike you. Here you go. Now you know how I feel.” I can go in any way.

Garwin Sanford:
I think I never really — This is just off the cuff now because I never really considered it. At the time it was just like — Again, first episode. Because of being caught with one day to prepare, I would… A bit of [a] catch-up. I didn’t have as much time to think about each one of those moments. We were just literally learning the lines, getting it down and running it on instinct somewhat and then I would work on it. At the time I thought, “Well, that’s…” I thought it was a really touching moment because it really — You could see how it affected Sam when that happened. But in the real world if you could actually do that, I could only assume — You pointed out, “I don’t like you and here’s how much.” But on some level, if you — The biggest problem we run into, and if you look at what’s happening in America and Canda right now, with people who are non-believers of the COVID virus and people who say it’s real, the people who are denying what it is and the angst and that polarization that’s happening because of this pandemic, is that if we were allowed to show them how we really felt, it might make us more empathetic towards the other people. Instead of demonizing them it makes them real. The reason why people lash out is because they feel voiceless and powerless and they’re scared, and they don’t know quite what to do. And the bodyguard for fear and insecurity is anger. That’s what comes out to protect us. So, we see people lashing out on both sides, the left and the right, the extreme left, the extreme right. It resorts to violence. And if you have the ability to actually let someone know how you really feel, we would find, I believe… No, I’d like to believe we would find commonality.

David Read:
Because it would be weaponized as well. People would use it for — Just like we’ve used social media.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes.

David Read:
I would argue that social media has been, unfortunately now over the pass of time, net detriment to humanity. It has obviously not elevated us as we thought it would. There’s also that argument that… And I’ve seen a lot of people do this… “Because I am more passionate or emotional about this than you are, I must be correct.” And I think that’s false. But to be able to share what you really feel with someone else only to increase the amount of empathy that you have from one person to another, and to truly understand them… We don’t do that because we don’t talk to one another anymore. And what we have on Earth right now is conversing. We have a conversation problem, and we may not have Tollan tech to solve a lot of our issues but at this point I’m not sure… I would probably stand with the Curia on this. I don’t think it would do much good. It may do more harm than good.

Garwin Sanford:
It didn’t help the Tollans much either.

David Read:
No. Yeah, That’s right. At the end of it. OK, so everyone’s been asking this in the forum. All right. “Is Garwin’s cat named Schrödinger?” Is it just one cat?

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, it’s just one cat. I’m not gonna tell you.

David Read:
Really?

Garwin Sanford:
That’s a mystery.

David Read:
You don’t share the cat’s name?

Garwin Sanford:
No.

David Read:
Well, they don’t come to you when you call them by their name anyway. You know and I know it. Unless it’s one of those one out of 10 cats that behaves like a dog. For David and Garwin both. Kevin wants to know, “When was the last time you laughed so hard you cried?” Boy, it hasn’t been this year, I don’t think. Garwin, are you there?

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah.

David Read:
OK, I lost you. There’s a real bad wi-fi connection in this episode. Sorry about that. I can’t remember the last time I laughed so hard that I cried. If a friend told me something, I guess.

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, I don’t know.

David Read:
Isn’t that sad?

Garwin Sanford:
Certainly, it hasn’t been in the last year, for sure. This has been a year.

David Read:
Thanks Kevin. We both feel like crap now. Terry. Terry, please God save us, “Garwin, do you still have your pilot’s license?”

Garwin Sanford:
Yes. I haven’t flown for years now, though. I ended up being one of the founding members of a film school at Langara College. So, I became a professor for 15 years and I became head of the school. For the last four or five years I was there, and I left two years ago, I guess. OR maybe three years ago now. Two and a half or something. And it took over my life. To start a school from the ground up and make it successful, it demanded a lot of time. It was a lot of work to be done. My art, my music… I stopped reading books. I was just focused on this school. We made 24 short films every eight months. And they were all festival ready. We’d have 12 directors. So, for the first four months we would shoot 12 short films that were three to five minutes long and then in the summer term we would do 10-minute movies. And to do 12 10-minute movies is like two features. And you’re learning, you’re mentoring as you go. This is all about mentoring. We had a program where the actors, the directors, the writers would all work together. We had three streams. They all had their own classes. Then they had the classes they did together. So, for those years everything went away. And then when I left — Because I had enough. I was burning out. It was exhausting. And I missed my life. I was still… And I was acting still. I was still making movies and TV shows while I was doing this. So, it was extremely intense for many years. And since I stopped, I’ve gone back to reading and I’ve gone back to playing guitar and teaching myself French and whatever. I’m starting to move back in. And I’m getting the itch at this point. I’m trying to figure out what to do about… Whether I’ll start sculpting again… What’s next. I was planning to move into bronze. I wanted to start making these pieces in bronze. So, that’s the next level that I wanna go to and that means building a new studio that’s gonna include metal work. So, those types of things. I think I might start with lost-wax and then move forward from there. I’m not really sure yet but I know that I’m starting to get the itch. It took me a full year to recover from the exhaustion, literally. It was almost 12 months before I came out of the fog of working so intensely. But I’m enjoying being back in my life as it used to be before I took on that task.

David Read:
You have two kids?

Garwin Sanford:
No. Well, yeah, I have a daughter, and I have a stepson.

David Read:
OK. Are they artistic?

Garwin Sanford:
Yes, definitely.

David Read:
OK. How has it been…?

Garwin Sanford:
But I’m not gonna talk about my family too much. I don’t mean to be unkind, but this is my… I choose to be out here in the world.

David Read:
OK, absolutely.

Garwin Sanford:
But I don’t talk about my family.

David Read:
Understood. I apologize.

Garwin Sanford:
No, no. There’s nothing to apologize for. It’s just me. That’s a whole… That’s just one of the things I keep private.

David Read:
OK. Then let me… In that context, though, as a teacher with…What I was wanting to get to was passing on knowledge to next generations. Have you had an opportunity to really watch people that you care about grow into artists in their own right?

Garwin Sanford:
Well, I’ll say this much. I homeschooled for the whole time my daughter grew up. I homeschooled her. And the reason was, I thought schooling was a waste of time for them basically. 30 people in a classroom go the middle… Medium. You can only go to the middle — The people at the top and the bottom get kind of shunt aside and just juggernaut move on. And I didn’t want that to be the way she learned so I didn’t do that. So, yes, I’ve watched very carefully. That’s one of the reasons why, I think, I still, to this day… I’m an old man and I’m still learning. I push myself to learn all the time because it keeps me awake, alive, and excited about tomorrow.

David Read:
Absolutely. Romainthblt wants to know… Do you have any specific memories of working with Rick?

Garwin Sanford:
You know what? Actually, one that summed it up. In the last episode we’re crouched down, and we were rehearsing the scene, and he says… I can’t remember what was it about, finding me or whatever… And he goes, “Oh, don’t worry. You’ll be the one in gray.” And I laughed.

David Read:
On the take?

Garwin Sanford:
And we’re rehearsing it again.

David Read:
Oh, in the rehearsal.

Garwin Sanford:
In the rehearsal. And I laughed again. I kind of laughed. And on the third rehearsal I laughed again, and he goes, “I’m gonna say that on the day.” And I said, “And I’m gonna laugh.” And he goes, “OK.” So, when he says it on screen, I just do a little chuckle, and I shake my head and then look back up. Because he’s not without humor.

David Read:
No.

Garwin Sanford:
Right? But that was what I always found that Rick brought to the scenes, was that he always — The lines on the show sometimes were made up by him. He would just ad-lib them and then they would become part of the show. But I always found his sense of humor funny. I found him humorous. So, that was, for me, the joy of that he was always bringing something that made me — And I have a really warped sense of humor, and I think he did too, because stuff would come from this place here. Always a little off over here and he’d make out some comment. And I always remember, even when I watched the shows, he would make me chuckle. That was one of my favorite moments, was, “See, I’m gonna do that on the day,” “Yeah, me too.”

David Read:
OK. He was known for throwing things at his fellow talent and saying, “How are you gonna respond to that?”

Garwin Sanford:
He would keep you on your toes. There’s no doubt. And…

David Read:
Yeah, go ahead.

Garwin Sanford:
…Tobin Bell and a little bit of a… He found that a little difficult, I think.

David Read:
OK.

Garwin Sanford:
Rick would say something that wasn’t in the script and Tobin would kind of get, “What?”

David Read:
Blindsided.

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah, he would just kind of go, “Uh.”

David Read:
Well, that was perfect, though, because he was playing such a stuffy dude. And it would be like, “Yeah.” So, Rick is the example of humanity absolutely unhinged. And he gets to be crazy while everyone around him is like, “Yeah, he’s our leader but you know… Just kind of because.” By Enigma and some of the… Perhaps even Atlantis… Did you have — How willing were they in incorporating any notes that you had while you were developing the episodes? Or did you just come and do your lines and that’s it?

Garwin Sanford:
No. Because most, again, my scenes were Amanda… She was always working with the writers who were on set. The producer writers were on set. And she would sit down, and we would talk about what their intent was. What were you intending and what if this, and sometimes it would be rewritten right there to accommodate Amanda’s ideas and things that were going on. As a guest star, I never feel that you’re gonna step in and say, “This is the way I think it should be done.”

David Read:
Of course.

Garwin Sanford:
But you would make suggestions and things would changer or there’d be “Is it ok if I go this way or that way?” And the directors would also have you — I love working with Bill Gereghty. In the episode where I’m taking them all into — I guess it was the last one. It was the last one. I’m walking into the main room where they all try to arrest us and we’re sneaking through the hallways to get there. And when we shot it first, I just walked in and just walked down the hall and went in the doorway. And Bill Gereghty… This is what I love about good directors… He said, “Garwin, is there anybody around?” I said, “What do you mean?” He says, “Well, are there any guards? Are there people around?” “Ah. OK Bill. I get it.” What he wanted was some suspense. He said, “You’re walking down the hallway like John Wayne here.” And I said, “Well, yeah, I feel this is my home. I own the place. So, I’m gonna own it.” But he said, “You are sneaking in to do these deeds.” So, then I come to the corner, and I would look, and then make the move. So, he didn’t tell me to do this. He let me discover it by asking a question, which when I direct, that’s how I do. When I work with actors, when I directed my feature and when I worked on my shorts, I would always have my actors… I would be giving them the questions to help them discover where I want them to go, as opposed to just telling them. Because if you tell an actor what to do, the actor will do it but maybe not the character. If you allow the actor to use the character to discover the note that you are looking for, then they own it and they can move forward. Because it’s been their discovery.

David Read:
Don’t the best teachers, I don’t care what profession you’re in, point us in the direction of doors, rather than opening the doors for us.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes, because if you don’t discover it yourself, you’ll never own it. You’ll just do it.

David Read:
Right, exactly. And maybe pushed — At some point they’re doing it for the wrong reason.

Garwin Sanford:
So, that was how we worked with the script itself, and the director would bring notes and the other actors, and sometimes the writers on set, when they were saying, “What if? What if?” So, that’s one of the reasons why. And again, Amanda was always looking for the better way and that was a really great experience because, like I say, most of my scenes were with her.

David Read:
Consummate professional. Romainthblt wanted to add, “There is another website now dedicated to Don S. Davis’ work where you can view and purchase prints.” Looks like donsdavisart.ca. So, thank you for correcting me.

Garwin Sanford:
So, it’s a Canadian site.

David Read:
It is. Yes, absolutely. The .com is gone. It’s now .ca. So, I’ll post the link in the episode once we’re done.

Garwin Sanford:
Excellent. What was it called again? Dondavis…?

David Read:
Donsdavisart.ca.

Garwin Sanford:
OK. That I can remember.

David Read:
Absolutely. You have given me a wonderful gift that I get to unwrap in front of everyone who has tuned in. So, one of the things that you told us about in a GateWorld interview eons ago was your gothic mask work. And I had always been picturing them in my head and wondering what they looked like. And I have some that you’ve sent me here that we’re gonna share with everyone. And one of the ones that really blew me away that was one of the first that you shared with me was a mask called Rebirth. And I wish you had it in front of you here because I’m now showing an image of it. It looks like a transfer from one being that’s cracked open to another. Can you please tell us about how you really got into this particular medium and what it means to you to be able to express it, and about Rebirth specifically?

Garwin Sanford:
How I [got] into it? Again, it’s almost everything that I ended up doing art-wise, is [I] just kind of [fell] into. 9/11 happened and all the horrible things that went with that. But the long-term effect in Canada where I was working at the time was that the business just stopped. Companies didn’t go anywhere. They only shot in America. They stopped traveling because of all the risks that were involved and trying to figure out how to deal with the first attack on American soil. I understand that completely. What happened was, I went from doing 12 to 16 shows a year to doing four. So, I had a fair amount of time in my hands and that’s when the art bug always hits me. Beauty of — There’s a TED Talk. This woman talks about the value of boredom, and she talks about that getting bored is what fuels creativity and fuels many of our epiphanies and move forwards in our self. I believe that when you get depressed it’s a time for introspection. That’s why it’s there. So, you stay there and be introspective until you can find a key out of it. So, the same thing with boredom. You’re bored and then it goes, “I wanna try something.” So, a friend of mine on the Sunshine Coast, where I lived at the time, was a potter. And I thought — I had made most of my acting breakthroughs in mask class doing comedia dell’arte, doing neutral masks, doing character masks. And Wendy Gorling was my instructor. She’s brilliant. She’s unparalleled in her abilities and as a mask instructor and as a person.

David Read:
Now, with masks, you’re wearing them and you’re doing a performance.

Garwin Sanford:
Correct. These are commedia dell’arte masks. It’s masks that… It’s called “mask work” and [inaudible] there’s protocol or around it when you are working with character mask. When you finish, you turn away from the people watching. Take the mask off when you’re rehearsing. So, you don’t break the character in front of them. There’s all these protocols that go with that performance. And I’ve always felt really powerful under mask. Some people are intimidated by it and get all upset and other people feel freed. And the key to me… I’d been having difficulties — I went to acting school having seen one play in my entire life. I was a complete newbie and the fact that Anthony Holland who was running Studio 58, which is one of Canada’s premier theater schools… The fact he let me in after me doing an audition that — I made every mistake you can make. I literally made every mistake you can make. I had no idea what acting was. And he let me in because — I asked him later, “Why did you let me into the school knowing what I know about what I showed you?” And he goes, “Well, I saw a spark,” and he said, ”You’re old enough….” 25 at the time. I’d already been flying. I had my pilot’s license. I was working on my commercial pilot’s license. He let me in. And as a result of being let in, it changed my entire life. There’s no doubt. But he said there was a spark and, “You were old enough to know better. If you didn’t like it, you’d leave. If we didn’t like you, we’d kick you out. So, it was a huge risk, but I just thought I saw something.” So, I owe that man. He became a mentor of mine over the years. He was acting until he was 97 years old. He was on stage two weeks before he passed away. He was astounding. Anyway, a great mentor for me. But the result of that was, is that in this class the mask work allowed me to free myself up. And I discovered under masks, “What is it about my mask performance that are better than my performances not under mask?” And I realized that, “Wait a minute. My other characters are just masks.” And then of course in my life I went, “Yes. Don’t we all? I’m wearing the son mask. I’m wearing the boyfriend mask now. I’m wearing the whatever mask now.” And it was one of those — That’s what I love about acting in theater school. It was intense therapy and the parallels of life and acting and the lessons for acting just resonated. So, I learned that under masks. So, mask had always been important to me. So, I decided that I wanna make some masks, and I said, “Do you have some clay that I could mess around with?” Because actually I’ve got a box of old raku clay over there. It’s almost too dry. “Go ahead.” If he pointed me towards any other type of clay other than raku clay, I wouldn’t have continued because I was making masks without knowing really — I didn’t take any classes. I was just making masks in a vacuum and there are rules when you’re making raku. You suppose… As uniform as possible in thickness so that when you fire it there’s a whole series of firings that can make them blow up if they’re uneven in thickness or if you have thick against thin. It goes on and on. But regardless, if he picked any other clay which was less forgiving in the kiln, I probably would have [given] up, because they all would have blown up on me. Because raku clay is very thermically forgiving, they survived. So, my first pieces made it through. And I glazed them and fired them in the raku kilns, and I went, “Wow.” And I remember Alan walking by me when I was making — This is my pottery friend. I was doing it at this studio. I was making my first mask and as he’s doing it, he goes, “Oh, you’ve done this before.” I said, “No. Not really.” But I began to realize something, is that if I can put emotion and life into a performance, into a character, into this mask, and a mask physically, maybe I can do the same — But that was me thinking, “Hm.” But I just thought, “You never know.” But something I was able to figure it out. So, that’s how I started. And within a very short period of time, I just got involved. I had nothing else going on. Acting-wise, very little. So, I just threw myself into this and I was enjoying the curve of learning and the next thing you know I had 60 of these things. And I had built a log house as you mentioned. I built my own house. I built a log house and five acres of woods up on the Sunshine Coast. Well, I was lucky to have wood walls everywhere because I can hang these masks everywhere. So, I had about 60 of them and Alan said to me… Because… He goes, “Why don’t you sell these?” And I said, “No. No one’s gonna buy these. They’re very gothic and weird and I don’t think anybody’s gonna be interested.” And he said, “Well, there’s a fair, a crafts fair, on the Sunshine Coast that he would go and sell his pottery in.” It was 50 bucks to get an application to go there. “You never know.” I said, “Oh.” He goes, “Come on. It’ll be fun. We’ll set up a booth nearby and we’ll have a weekend of meeting people and stuff.” And I went, “OK. Fine.” So, I did it and I sold 1500 dollars’ worth of masks the first weekend. I made — I sent you the photographs of what I call my Pianist piece. It’s a two-faced piece. Janus god is the two faces on the Roman doorways facing each other away. And it’s two pictures. They are actually back-to-back. Janus One and Two that I sent.

David Read:
Let me see here. I put them out of order.

Garwin Sanford:
It doesn’t matter.

David Read:
No, go ahead.

Garwin Sanford:
Anyway, this piece was what I consider one of my real art pieces. It was dark and very, very — One of the Januses has a piece of leather over their eyes. The other one on the other side over their mouth. So, it was about being stymied with blind leading the blind, not being able to speak, et cetera. So, it was a dark piece. And someone walked by and they stopped, and they looked at it and said, “Oh.” And I put a price tag of 550 bucks on it because I wasn’t gonna sell it. And no one was gonna buy it for that because it’s never gonna sell. And these two people just looked at it and said, “I never thought I’d see something like this at a crafts fair.” And they were a gallery owner in Calgary, Alberta, and they bought it, because they wanted to sell it in their gallery. So, that was when I went, “Oh. Wow. That’s interesting.” And then I got an invitation from the local ceramic guild that was doing a show at a gallery. They just sent me a letter saying, “Would you be interested in showing some of your pieces at our next show?” And I went, “Sure, why not.” I didn’t think about it until I got there and went to the show, and I met the other artists. And every single one of them had been doing it for 15 or 20 years. And I went, “Well, maybe there is something here. Maybe I’ve tapped into something. Maybe.” And I think it’s partly the performance archetypes that get exposed in these pieces. So, Rebirth itself was — When I make pieces, I don’t start out with an idea in most cases. The armor piece, the Roman armor piece that I made, the Magnus, that piece, I knew I was gonna make an armor piece. But I didn’t know how he was gonna look like or how it was gonna turn out. And I ended up with the helmet separate on a post from the thing. So, all these come as I go. So, What I do is I shape some clay, do the underbody, and then when I’m pleased with that, I literally take a plaster cast of a shapeless face that I made from one of my daughters’ plastered cast[s] for toys. And I made a bunch of them. And I’d stick it on the shape that I’d done and then would build on top of that with my actual clay that’s gonna make the mask. And then I just let my hands and my… I just shut off my brain, “Get out of my way,” and then just start shaping, and whatever comes. And I let that instinct just go. So, whatever happens. With this piece I knew I wanted two faces. That’s all I knew. I had no idea what was gonna be and as it came through, I began to start shaping and doing these things. And that iron bar going through the one face…

David Read:
Are we talking about Rebirth?

Garwin Sanford:
Yes. We’re back to Rebirth.

David Read:
Got it. OK. I’ve got it here.

Garwin Sanford:
I went on a segway with Magnus because that was a piece that I determined what I was gonna do. Back at Rebirth, it was just coming. There was no plan. So, what happens is the story develops as the piece unfolds. Do you know what I mean?

David Read:
It’s so cool.

Garwin Sanford:
You spend so much time on it as you’re working and doing it, the things start coming and then you just build on that instinct. And sometimes the meaning of the piece only comes when it’s finished. What it meant to me, what is being spoken out of my need to speak. And for me, I’ve had a number of Rebirths and almost all of them have come out of turmoil and damage to me. What I considered to be damage to me at the time. And what came out of it was something completely different. And as you can see, it’s the opposite in coloring. White [face] with black hair, black face with white hair. It’s the transformation. That’s almost what that piece was called.

David Read:
And it’s a violent act as well.

Garwin Sanford:
It is.

David Read:
It’s slamming right through her face.

Garwin Sanford:
It is damage. And our lives are full of joy and sorrow, pain and bliss, and most of my epiphanies have come out of pain and sorrow. The growth [inaudible] a lot of those moments. And that’s what we have to remember so we don’t despair, is that out of these things comes something better. If you involved yourself, if you don’t give up, if you continue to strive to be aware of what’s happening, look for the messages, try to find the way out of turmoil. What is it teaching me and how quickly can I get it out of my life? You can only get it out of your life once you learn the lesson. And if you don’t learn the lesson, it will repeat over and over and over again, and you will continue to damage yourself. And we have a tendency in our society to mandate through either media going — Like that story about the boredom. We don’t allow ourselves to be bored anymore because we go immediately to the lights and bells and whistles of our phone, to the computer, to Facebook.

David Read:
No. We can’t face it. That would be too painful.

Garwin Sanford:
Right.

David Read:
We can’t allow silence and stillness.

Garwin Sanford:
And we wanna shy away from that and that’s where the growth happens, is in those moments when you are hurt. And not always. Sometimes epiphanies come out of joy but most of mine have come out of sorrow and pain and disfunction. And I look at that, go, “OK. Why is this in my life? What am I supposed to be learning and how do I get out of it as soon as I possibly can?” And sometimes it takes a long time. Sometimes it happens. I’ve had it happen instantly. “What is this?” And then go, “Oh.” Those are amazing moments.

David Read:
Right upside the head. Might as well by physical hit.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes. You wanna — That’s the search of my life, is to be aware, to fight for awareness so that I can monitor and watch what’s going on in my life, to look for the signs. To step out of the way of the truck before it hits me if I can. And if I don’t, minimize the damage when I get hit.

David Read:
It’s interesting that you bring up this story because two years ago when we were first discussing your art… I believe it was Words Unspoken.

Garwin Sanford:
Yes.

David Read:
This story has stuck with me. I think about it all the time. Will you please tell this story? It’s one of those great reversals. It’s like, “Oh!” And then, “Oh.” And it’s, “Wow.”

Garwin Sanford:
For me, what’s interesting about, like you said, those moments that happened in your life, I didn’t really think about whether what my art was. I just did it because it pleased me. But I’m very selfish and very self-centered. I decided to only sell — I had a couple of galleries carry my pieces at times, and then when they sold it and I wasn’t there, I felt like I missed out. Because I didn’t see what the person had experienced when they saw the piece and why they bought it. So, I made a decision to just sell at shows. There’s crafts fairs, literally. Wherever I could be, where people were looking to buy things — I only did maybe 10 shows total.

David Read:
If I may insert here, because I want people to understand just how important this… Or sacred I should say… This particular medium is for you. You told me that this is the one… Our artistic area… Or perhaps the most, where you do not allow yourself to compromise, where, “This is gonna be exactly the way I want it because I have complete control over it, and it will be this or it’s not gonna be at all.”

Garwin Sanford:
Correct. As an actor, I feel I’ve compromised at times. I had a mortgage and a family to raise and bills to pay. So, I would take jobs that I wouldn’t necessarily wanna take but would make the best out of it. And I’d call those my ditch digging jobs. And I’d still learn something. I’d still have lots of fun working with people.

David Read:
Of course.

Garwin Sanford:
It wasn’t a hardship. Let’s put it that way. I wasn’t actually digging a ditch and certainly… Come on, actors complaining about working hard.

David Read:
That’s never happened.

Garwin Sanford:
Talk to the crews. They’re working hard. We can go back to the trailer, have a little time off, have a nap. Come on. Anyway, regardless, that type of thing. I can never complain about that. I decided that I would take whatever work was coming to me. Because I decided to live in Canada, to raise a family in Canada. I didn’t wanna do it in the United States because it wasn’t my home country. I wanted to go home. So, I went, “OK. Then I’ll have to… Whatever’s here was what I’ll have to do.” I made a choice. The choice was, “I want family more than my career so I’m gonna do it here.” Because I was in LA for five years and at that time I worked a lot in Canada. I worked in the States. And I decided to come home to have a family for that reason. So, regardless, the setup is… I’m getting lost here … going on a tangent. But basically, what I wanted to do with that was to sell only to the people that I wanted to sell to. I remember one of my favorite pieces. It was a large piece called Epiphany. And I think I sent it to you. It was a piece where it was a warrior woman with a broken sword, and her legs were growing into roots on the bottom of the piece. It’s about five feet tall, four and a half feet tall, and it’s one of my largest pieces. And I had a woman come looking at the piece and just saying, “Oh, it’s very interesting piece.” And she goes, “I have… My carpets are kind of beige,” and she started describing the color scheme of her room and whether she thought they would fit in there, and I just went, “Nah. Not at all.” The piece wasn’t speaking to her on any level except she thought it might fit with her décor.

David Read:
Oh God.

Garwin Sanford:
So, I just… Well, it’s OK. That was important to her. Not to me. So, I said, “No. It wouldn’t at all. I don’t think…” I wouldn’t have sold her the piece for no matter what she offered for. So, that’s the precursor to this story. I don’t make any compromises. People say, “Oh, you sell pieces online.” I said, “No. The joy of me selling this piece is, the people that see the piece when it speaks to them.” 90 percent of the people that would be in these markets would look into my booth and just walk by. There’d be no recognition. It was just a blank look. This has no… It doesn’t speak to them on any level. It doesn’t interest them on any level. 10 percent of the people that went by would stop and look and some of them go, “Oh, these are the ugliest things I’ve ever seen.” They would go, “Oh, these are horrible” and they’d leave.

David Read:
At least you got a reaction.

Garwin Sanford:
Well, this is… For me, that was as much praise as any.

David Read:
What is art if not to invoke a response.

Garwin Sanford:
Exactly. And then about three percent just go, “Aah!” And something… And they just go, “Oh my God.” And then they would start telling me their life story. Excuse me.

David Read:
You’re good.

Garwin Sanford:
Because the one piece that they ended up buying spoke to them somehow, and made them… It evoked a huge response. And I would have… I had a German woman come into the booth one time, and I watched her shaking her head and shaking her head, and looking at the pieces, and I thought, “Oh, she doesn’t like them.” Because it was negative shake. And she walked over and said, “I have a large collection of masks, and these are the most interesting things. I’ve never seen anything like them. I think they’re amazing.” She goes, “They’re so provocative,” and she goes, “I have to tell my husband. I’m gonna bring him.” So, she walks off and comes back with her husband. She goes, “Look. What you think?” He goes, “These are the most effing, ugly things I’ve ever seen in my entire effing life,” and he turned around and stormed out of the booth. For me, that was — He was eviscerated. They just went, “Ugh.” He was shaken by then. And some people — I’ve had people walk into the booth where they walk in and they haven’t really seen what it is. They look up and go, “Oh!” And they literally turn and run out of the booth. That’s, to me… They’re speaking to something. That’s as much as an applause to the people that buy them. But I wanna be with them when they get bought. Now we finally get to the story about Words Unspoken. It’s a whole precursor. Anyway, the piece is a very, very fragile feminine face. Very fine-featured nose. I made cupid’s bows lips that were very pronounced, and I put a beautiful, raku blue shawl around her face that was like a shawl scarf. And then over the face I made a piece of clay that looked like a burlap. Canvas burlap growing up onto the face. And it was all frayed here on the cheek and here it was lower. And just over the lip — The lips were covered but there was one spot where my little finger… It was the size of my little finger… That was not completed… Sealed up yet. So, it was open. And it was one of my favorite pieces and funnily enough, I never got a photograph of it.

David Read:
The one I’m displaying is not it, folks.

Garwin Sanford:
It was a later piece. I put it up on the wall. I hadn’t had — And it sold before I could get a photograph of it. So, this guy walks in with his wife and he’s looking at the pieces. He’s walking around. Then he stops and looks at Words Unspoken, and says to his wife… And I’m always eavesdropping… His wife comes over, and he goes, “Honey, look at this. What do you think?” She goes, “Wow. It’s an interesting piece.” He goes, “I was thinking of that for the office.” And I went, “The office? OK. It’s not something I would think of, normally.” So, they looked around a bit [inaudible]. I said, “Sure.” “Can you tell me about this?” And he pointed to Words Unspoken, and I said, “I don’t what you mean.” He goes, “What’s it about?” And I said, “Well, I try not to put my story on them because whatever it speaks to you, is whatever that is.” “Oh, I don’t wanna hear the artist bullshit.” He said, “Tell me what it means to you.” So, I looked at him and I’m going, “I’m not selling this piece to you. I’m not gonna sell this piece to you.” I said, “OK.” I said, “Well, OK, the truth is the piece is called Words Unspoken because if you don’t speak your truth, it will grow… This thing will grow over your mouth, and you won’t be able to speak. And if you don’t continue — The reason it was frayed and higher here, it’s gonna continue to grow and before too long you’ll be blind as well. It’ll suffocate you and you’ll die. If you don’t speak your truth. That’s what it means to me.” And he goes, “Huh. I’d like to buy this piece.” And I went, “OK. I’m sorry. I gotta ask.” I said, “I get the privilege of selling or not selling to people.” And I said, “You want the artist bullshit out of the way? I don’t sell unless I think it’s going somewhere that it means something.” And I said, “Personally, you just said it was going in the office. So, it doesn’t — What’s that all about?” And he goes, “I’m a psychiatrist and I work with anorexic women.” And he said, “The issue for them in my mind is, and my experience is, that they can’t control their lives so they can’t control what goes in their mouths. And unless they speak out, and learn to speak out what they need, then they will lose it. And they can lose their lives as a result.” And that moment, to me, was the most profound for me as an artist ever. It gave me goosebumps. I almost wept at the time because I didn’t know what to say. And the thought of that to this day is that what art can do on some level — The fact it would be my piece of art that’s there in that situation, which he said, “I’ll just put it on the wall in my office,” and eventually they’re gonna… The conversation will be about that piece. When you put up art in a psychiatric situation where you’re working with this, people are talking, they’ll be looking around and they’ll see something and if they react to it, you’ll say, “What do you think that piece is about,” or they’ll ask, “What that piece is about?” Because it’ll be something that will resonate. So, it made me realize for the first time in my life what art really means. I didn’t know what it meant. I liked this. I know what I like. And I don’t know art, but I know what I like. I went around looking at pieces and not really thinking about why they would resonate with me necessarily, but I’d say, “Boy, I love this piece.” And then I began to realize what art can be. It can speak. It can heal. And it does. This pandemic… In the middle of this pandemic, how we don’t… In North America, how little we value the arts, and it’s quite evident through the lack of funding for filming and for painting and for art pursuit in general. There’s just not a lot of respect for it in capitalistic North American society, unless it can sell for a lot of money. And if at this moment in the pandemic, if we didn’t have television, and books, and music, and art to share and look at, where would we be? What would we be doing? I don’t know. But during these times, art becomes even more important in my mind. So, it was one of those epiphany moments for me. It meant a lot. I was really quite something.

David Read:
Well, you’re sharing a piece that you said, “There’s a little hole in here. She can still speak. There is hope.”

Garwin Sanford:
Yeah.

David Read:
And I think it’s important to remember, I don’t care how dark the situation is, there is always hope. And the fact that they’re in that room with that doctor means that they’re trying. And your piece is in a place that will help contextualize that struggle. What more can you ask for as an artist?

Garwin Sanford:
For me, that’s the most rewarding moment of my artistic life. More than even the film work I’ve done in any level. That moment was… It really left a mark on me. It really did.

David Read:
Thank you for sharing. These mean a great deal to me that you’ve shared them, and I’d love to have you back on in the future to talk more specifically about the individual episodes and more of your art. Next year, if you are willing.

Garwin Sanford:
Always, David. I really enjoy talking to you, David. Kindred spirits, so yeah, without a doubt.

David Read:
I appreciate your time. I’m gonna go ahead and wrap things up, Garwin, on this end. I will be emailing you shortly. But once again, it’s been a pleasure to have you on and be a part of this new project.

Garwin Sanford:
Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you, David.

David Read:
You take care of yourself. I’ll be in touch with you real soon.

Garwin Sanford:
You too. Bye-bye.

David Read:
Garwin Sanford, everyone. You get to watch people on TV. If you’re lucky enough, you get to meet them. You get to have connection with people and then in ways that you don’t expect, sometimes you meet someone where it’s like, “Yeah. I get what your work means to you. I’d like to know about some of your other work,” and you get to really understand and embrace another person better. And more than just the actor or character… Or rather the character that they played on screen. And Garwin has always been one of the ones for me that’s really stood out. As soon as he had thoughts to share about Don on stage at Gatecon a few years ago. Because Don and I are alma maters. We both went to the same school. I’ve always felt a very kindred spirit to Don S. Davis, a midwestern boy, and everyone has always truly loved Don, but Garwin really loved Don, and had a really special relationship with him. So, continuing to have Garwin in my life in small way is almost like having Don still there. So, thank you, Garwin, for being on. We have a sponsor this month, if I can pull up that information here. Please bear with me. Dial the Gate has partnered with 3dtech.pro for the month of December to give you a chance to win your very own desktop Stargate and customized Ancient key chain. To enter to win these items you need to use a desktop or laptop computer and visit dialthegate.com. Scroll down to Submit Trivia Questions. Your trivia may be used in a future episode of Dial the Gate, either for our monthly trivia night or for a special guest to ask me in a round of trivia. There are three slots for trivia. One easy, one medium, one hard. Only one needs to be filled in but you’re more than welcome to submit up to three. Please note the submission form does not currently work for mobile devices. Your trivia must be received before January 1, 2021. If you’re the lucky winner, I’ll be notifying you via your email right after the start of the new year to get to your address and what word you want for you Ancient key chain. Be sure to click our partner’s web address for more Stargate-related merchandise at 3dtech.pro. This lovely Atlantis model there was created by Kevin Shabo and he’s just magnificent. You can’t really see it. It’s in the dark now. But he’s incredible. We were talking about his work and his – The Atlantis model arrived to me and there was a piece broken and he’s like, “I need to resend the whole thing.” I’m like, “No. What are you doing? You know how much it costs to get here? It’s fine. There’s a thing called superglue.” He’s like, “No, no, I need to resend it.” “It’s like, “No, no.” It’s like, “You know what? Let’s partner with one another for December.” So, 3dtech.pro. I do have some Narim-related art that I’d like to share real quick. So, that was Garwin’s art. Fan art. Here we go. This guest artist is Nebulan. This is another chiblee, I think what they’re called. Yeah, more Stargate chiblees. So, Nebulan created these, and he has Omak, Narim, Travell, the Assistant to Travell, and the Security Officer here. He says, “Omak is seen in the horrible outfit that they wore in Enigma. Narim has three outfits. The horrible Enigma one. But his Pretense and Between Two Fires outfits are pretty similar.” I think they were the same one. We’re gonna have to ask Garwin about that next time. The talent in this community, both on the professional side of the Stargate community and the fan side, is just absolutely crazy. And I’m so privileged to be able to host a lot of that content here. Next week’s guests. Live on December the 19th, Joseph Mallozzi will be joining us for Part Three, and I don’t know why my image is not showing, but… Yes. So, Joseph Mallozzi will be joining us for Part Three of his ongoing talk at 1p.m. Pacific Time on Saturday, December the 19th. David Hewlett, Dr. McKay, will be joining us on Sunday, December the 20th at 11… That’s supposed to be a.m., not p.m. Sorry about that. Guys, I am sorry. I don’t know what’s going on. All my stuff is mixed up. 11 a.m. Sunday, December the 20th, 2 p.m. Easter Time as well, David Hewlett will be joining us. And then two hours later at 1 p.m. Pacific Time on Sunday, December the 20th, actress Jacqueline Samuda who played Nirrti, she’ll be joining to discuss her role as well. And that’s all I’ve got. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you to Garwin as well. I do have some questions that were given to me to address. I will be addressing them next week. I promise. Big thanks to my moderating team. You guys are fantastic. Summer, Jeremy, Tracy, Keith and Ian. You guys make this… You guys really grease the wheel on the show and make this happen for the audience and I really appreciate you being there. Linda “GateGabber” Furey and Jen Kirby, my production team. This has been a good year so far. And we’re just three months in. We’ve got a lot of ground to cover. I’m gonna go ahead and let you guys go. We’ll be seeing each other next week. My name is David Read. We will see you on the other side.