Dial the Gate is delighted to welcome the return of Heather E. Ash, Writer and Story Editor, Stargate SG-1! We got off to a great start in part one of our last discussion with two of her episodes, and now she returns LIVE to answer more fan questions and share stories from creating “New Ground,” “Beneath the Surface” and “Rite of Passage!”

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Timecodes
0:00 – Splash Screen
0:48 – Opening Credits
1:24 – Welcome
1:37 – Guest Introduction
2:35 – Jack Kidnapping Merrin in “Foothold”
6:22 – Creating Non-Goa’uld Aliens
8:28 – “New Ground”
11:36 – Nyan’s Journey
13:24 – Modern VS Future Sensibilities
18:37 – Wonder Woman 2017
20:54 – SG-1’s Metropolis
21:58 – The Pace of Writing Scripts
24:03 – Completing a Draft in Two Weeks
24:54 – Studio-Assembled Writers Rooms
27:08 – Residuals in Stargate
30:34 – “Beneath the Surface”
32:08 – The Jack and Sam Relationship
34:55 – Losing Script Elements VS Fighting For Them
38:40 – Your First Draft Won’t Be Perfect
40:50 – Hammond in “Beneath The Surface”
41:30 – Heather Ash’s Unfilmed General Hammond Story
45:43 – Hammond in “Chain Reaction”
47:47 – “Rite of Passage”
51:02 – Cassandra Fraiser
52:07 – Momma Bear Janet Fraiser
55:46 – Bringing Nirrti Back
59:50 – Jacqueline Samuda’s Reading Into Nirrti
1:01:00 – Brad Wright’s Travelers
1:06:08 – Killer Heat
1:06:28 – A Ship Full of Sailors
1:07:08 – Naquadah Reactor: A Double-Wide Borg Trailer
1:08:45 – Imagination Coming True
1:19:27 – High School Reunions
1:22:09 – Amazing Stargate Production People
1:23:49 – Zoo / Genesis / Goa’ulds
1:25:23 – What a Great Gig
1:29:17 – Is My Stuff Too Derivative?
1:30:37 – A Student Changed Their Major
1:34:22 – Writer’s Block / Getting Started
1:37:00 – The Painting Scene in “Learning Curve”
1:41:52 – Children in Jeopardy
1:47:43 – Films and Shows to Go Watch
1:53:01 – Heather’s Current Projects
1:56:30 – Open to New Paths
2:04:21 – Writing for Film and TV Again
2:05:34 – Jack O’Neill’s Brain
2:06:40 – Thank You, Heather!
2:07:41 – Post-Interview Housekeeping
2:08:56 – End Credits

***

“Stargate” and all related materials are owned by MGM Studios and MGM Television.

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TRANSCRIPT
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David Read:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Episode 263 of Dial the Gate: The Stargate Oral History Project. My name is David Read, and I appreciate you joining me for this episode. I am privileged to have back Heather E. Ash, Stargate SG-1 writer and story editor, and someone I have come to admire greatly, partly because I enjoy hanging out with her, and partly because, Heather, you are a wealth of knowledge. It is so exciting for me to have you back. As soon as I got finished with the previous episode, it’s like, “Oh, we’re doing this again,” partly because we only got through almost half of your stuff. How are you?

Heather E. Ash:
I’m fine. It’s hot here in the Midwest, as you know.

David Read:
What is it up there?

Heather E. Ash:
So, if there’s a hum in the background, we can’t hear it, but if you hear it, that’s the air conditioner going.

David Read:
It was 97, 96 on my dashboard today in Nashville.

Heather E. Ash:
Same.

David Read:
So, toasty. It has come.

Heather E. Ash:
And humid, which is worse.

David Read:
So, we are moving back into Stargate SG-1. Let me pull up your episodes here. We spoke previously, we covered “Learning Curve”, and we covered…

Heather E. Ash:
“Foothold”.

David Read:
… “Foothold” pretty substantially. But in the conversation that I had with you, particularly on “Learning Curve”, which is my favorite of the ones that you did, I know yours is “Foothold”, there was one thing that I really neglected to cover in terms of the conversation for “Learning Curve”, and that is that Jack commits a pretty serious transgression in that episode. He kidnapped a child, technically speaking, and was that in your original draft? How was that originally perceived? Did you have to massage anything in place in the original draft to make it work? Or was it always within the bounds of who this person is, this totally makes sense that he could be court-martialed over this and he’d be OK with it?

Heather E. Ash:
I could not tell you if that was something that we debated over. I mean, they do a lot of stuff on there, and it’s an alien. Who’s gonna get him in trouble?

David Read:
Who’s gonna know?

Heather E. Ash:
It could cause an intergalactic incident, sure.

David Read:
It’s so true.

Heather E. Ash:
But no, I think it’s something the character would do. He’s not really wanting to be there, if I recall. We’re still fairly early in the show. So, if he believes that it’s the right thing to do, he is going to go do that thing. And he’ll deal with the consequences later. Are they gonna fire him? OK, he’ll go fishing.

David Read:
That’s exactly right. And in this case, he’s connected with this person. He has had an opportunity to be a dad again, and I think he always… I don’t think he ever doubted that he was, but I think this episode proves that even though Charlie is gone, he’s still completely capable of it. That scene of him asking Merrin to paint him a flower is one of my favorites from the whole show, and her getting outside of her box, her literal box, and making a representation of Major Carter.

Heather E. Ash:
Nice.

David Read:
“Isn’t that me?” It’s great. It makes you feel good. It’s a warm episode, and I still love that you took Jack on that journey because it makes sense for the character.

Heather E. Ash:
I think we talked about this last time. Writing and watching is digging into the character and saying, “Where are we gonna take them? That’s a little bit different. I think that’s what makes the stories really interesting once you’ve set up your characters, when you start adding the layers in. And when you believe your character is going to go a certain way, if there’s a way to surprise the audience or even ourselves as writers and have them act in certain ways. Or just knowing that they’re gonna get in trouble. But he’s not gonna be court-martialed. Let’s be honest.

David Read:
That’s great. Now, one of the things that when I look back on these shows, only one of them is a Goa’uld episode. Was it your personal mandate to write new species? ‘Cause I love it. Any time that we can encounter a new group of people with a new story of their own, I’m all for it. Or was it something that the story that I want to present doesn’t happen to be a replicator story or, to the last one, a Goa’uld story? Was there nothing conscious there?

Heather E. Ash:
No. I think it was mostly the concept of it. We need people to fulfill this… to set up the “The child is going to have their brain removed,” we need to have an alien for that. And that made sense with the nanite concept. And for “Foothold”, it was, “How do we do body snatchers? How do we get people who look just like us? Well, the Goa’uld can’t do that.” I was never really that fascinated with the Goa’uld, frankly. That wasn’t my sweet spot in terms of what I found interesting about the show.

David Read:
What was it that didn’t fascinate you about them? Genuinely curious. Because I think that sometimes they can be too comic booky. Now, I think there are some great Goa’uld episodes.

Heather E. Ash:
For sure.

David Read:
And I think they were a great archvillain. But sometimes it was a little mustache-twirling.

Heather E. Ash:
And it can be. I mean, part of getting to “New Ground” was, “What can we do with Teal’c that we haven’t seen before?” To get him in that situation where he’s gonna be helpless, he’s gonna have to rely on someone else, take him out of his comfort zone. That’s where that concept came out of. So, again, character. I don’t necessarily like to write species. I like to write the individuals. And there just wasn’t anything for me that I felt I could latch onto.

David Read:
OK. So, tell me about “New Ground.” So, our concepts for “Learning Curve” are the nanites taking a child and getting a child’s brain sucked out, lobotomized. “Foothold,” you’re saying body snatching. What about “New Ground?” What was it that compelled you about “New Ground?” I’m really interested to talk about this one.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes. And the longer we go, the less details I have. I do remember walking into Brad’s office, and this was another high-concept idea, and I said, “We go to a planet and they believe in evolution, but they’re wrong.” Because as we know, the panspermia theory that Stargate gives proof that people were put there and did not evolve from whatever the resident creatures were. And he thought that was a great thing. Let’s just argue the other side of it. How does one approach science? Basically, how science works, which is you have to look at objective evidence and the data, and if it’s replicable, then you’re gonna change your assumptions. You’re gonna change … It’s constant change in the face of new evidence. You have this scientist struggling with the overturning of his entire knowledge base and everything he’s dedicated himself to. And I really liked that along with the idea of Teal’c having to rely on him.

David Read:
I love that this episode… We had a number of these episodes, and it only makes sense, where the Stargate is in one territory of many. And in this particular case, it gives credence to and verifies their enemy’s beliefs. And so as far as they’re concerned, it’s Optrican fallacy. And the Bedrosians are stuck literally between a Stargate and a hard space. And what are they gonna do? I think it was Nyan, he–

Heather E. Ash:
Nyan?

David Read:
Yes, Nyan.

Heather E. Ash:
I’m so terrible at the naming because…

David Read:
There’s a character named Niam, so now I’m getting … And he’s coming on next week, so I’m all mixed up.

Heather E. Ash:
There you go. The Opticans… Optricans? Optrican…

David Read:
Optricans.

Heather E. Ash:
They were named after my agents. So, the Bedrosians were named after Matt Bedrosian, one of my agents, and… I’m sorry, not the agents. Forgive me. Tony Optican, who was the MGM exec who heard my first pitches and sent me to Brad and Jonathan, that was in honor of him. So, there you go.

David Read:
That’s awesome. See, this is what I like about that–

Heather E. Ash:
But otherwise, I suck at naming.

David Read:
That’s great. And Nyan is taken on this journey where yes, he is a scientist, but he also has these beliefs — There is a Goa’uld element in this episode; shut my mouth — that are in conflict. And I love getting the chance to explore those questions within myself as a person of faith. I think that it’s a great exercise for me to always be asking, “What if I’m wrong? What are the things that I take for granted that I could be wrong about?” And this race allows us to see that in full bloom.

Heather E. Ash:
And I think that that’s what’s so great about science fiction, and I probably talked about this before, but why I like looking at it. It’s where you really can have these discussions. It helps sweeten the bitter pill maybe, because I’m not a person of faith. So, it’s a thought experiment I think, as you pointed out. I don’t think that faith doesn’t have a place in society. I think that we humans come by it naturally. I don’t think it’s mandatory. But nor is it mutually exclusive with science, for that matter. There’s plenty of scientists who are also people of faith.

David Read:
I agree.

Heather E. Ash:
They don’t necessarily confuse the two. There’s a scientific process that is separate from a belief system. Science does not care what you believe. I believe in science. It doesn’t care what I think. So, exploring that, I think, is one of the interesting things about getting to write the show.

David Read:
I had an interesting conversation a few years ago with someone who was going through, actually at MGM, some content. And they came across something that went against their– Christopher Judge put out a Women of Sci-Fi calendar a few years ago. She found this reprehensible. And every time I spoke with her about going through the catalog, she told me repeatedly how offended she was by this. And I made the–

Heather E. Ash:
I have a question. What kind of women of sci-fi calendar are we talking about here?

David Read:
Teryl Rothery, Ona Grauer. They were in… Teryl had a whole cowboy outfit. She was adorable in it. She was cute and some of them showed — there was no nudity — but some of them showed their bodies a little bit more. And this really bothered her and she goes, “Well, we’re not gonna include this, or this.” And she made it a point every time I talked with her about this to grind this one for a few minutes each time, to the point where I finally said, “Sensibilities are always changing. Who we are 20 years from now is not going to be the same as our views now.” And she said, “Well, I don’t think so.” And I was like, “OK, now that’s pretty darned dogmatic to think that we are at the pinnacle of our belief systems right now, that nothing will change.” And that has always stuck with me. And in viewing these episodes, particularly in “New Ground”, I think about that in terms of, “Am I the kind of person who is willing to accept the fact that I may be wrong?” And I think it’s refreshing to do that. And I think that frankly, if someone can’t do that, I think they need to look in the mirror. So, I love this episode for being able to say, “Yes, we have an objective reality here.” And we are presented with a situation where people are rubbing up against a reality that they have been taught isn’t true. How do you deal with someone like that? Because we don’t have the opportunity to just go through the gate and leave it alone. We live that in our lives. We can’t run away through the Stargate. And I love that this episode speaks to that. And I apologize for rambling.

Heather E. Ash:
No, that’s all right. Am I commenting on calendars? Here’s my question. Is anyone putting out a men of sci-fi where they’re dressed in cute cowboy outfits and showing more skin? Because I have thoughts about that, which is that we’re always doing the women. And I think I told you, I was looking through my journal from the time that I was in Vancouver, and when Amanda first met me, she was like, “Finally, a girl.” And Teryl and Amanda were very excited by this. And I think I’ve said before, the reason we need more voices in science fiction and all genre, all television, all art is because there, to date, has been mostly, let’s be honest, white guys. And a white guy sensibility. Where for you, Women of Sci-Fi, she’s like, “Got it.” But there’s someone out there who, or more than one someone, who’s done the calendar where they put the men in the exact poses they put women in, like sci-fi and comic books. And it looks ridiculous. Why does it look ridiculous? ‘Cause this is not the dominant paradigm…

David Read:
That’s right.

Heather E. Ash:
…of our Western male society.

David Read:
Love it.

Heather E. Ash:
Do a little turn and think, “OK, well, that looks fine to you.” If it looks weird, ask yourself why, and maybe we don’t need to keep retreading the same things. Let’s be a little bit more about it.

David Read:
Absolutely.

Heather E. Ash:
Thank you for letting me ramble about it.

David Read:
Absolutely. I think that that’s great. And I’ve come across these calendars of… Where was it? It’s firemen, scantly clad firemen. And I think there’s nothing wrong with it.

Heather E. Ash:
But men are being objectified, so? But women go through life objectified. If that makes any sense. I had a bigger point to this. What was… I had a really good example, it escaped me, and I can come back to it. Shoot. We might have to replay that whole conversation just ’cause I was like, “I got something.”

David Read:
No, it’s OK. If it comes to you, interrupt us later on. It may come back around. Any other notes on “New Ground”?

Heather E. Ash:
No, I remember what it was that I was gonna say. Excuse me. So, my opinion only. When Wonder Woman the movie came out.

David Read:
With Gal Gadot.

Heather E. Ash:
Gal Gadot. Who I love. I will watch her in just about everything. I did not care for that movie personally. Now people think I’m nuts. I liked it just fine, but it was very male gaze-y. And by that I mean the focus was on her body, the focus was on she’s a woman. Yes, in the time period, I get this. Chris Pine, adore, great comic actor. But most of that movie was about a woman in a man’s world and wins the universe through love. I’m so tired of women identifying with love. Same summer, I believe, Black Panther came out. Black Panther is the far superior movie, because you had women leaders, you had a woman general, actually a whole woman army, but the general, who was my favorite character… His sister was a scientist, and she went out and kicked ass. And it was never remarked upon. It simply was. That, for me, is an example of how you do that properly. ‘Cause if you’re just doing it for the benefit of the male gaze, and women power and you’re calling it out, that’s not really progressive in the way that Black Panther… It just was how this worked. And that is one of my favorite movies of all time.

David Read:
I do enjoy the film. I do appreciate it. I do have issues with it of my own. I think having to kill the other member of the tribe in order to take control–

Heather E. Ash:
That’s called stakes for you.

David Read:
I have my… I get it. There are some cliches there as well. And I do think that it’s a brilliant film, all things considered. “Beneath the Surface”. I am a huge fan of Metropolis. And you mentioned it in this past episode that we did and I did not connect “Beneath the Surface” with Metropolis until you said that. First time…

Heather E. Ash:
I didn’t either until someone told me.

David Read:
…ever.

David Read:
Really? That’s good–

Heather E. Ash:
I haven’t seen Metropolis.

David Read:
What?

Heather E. Ash:
I know.

David Read:
It is long, but it is riveting. Obviously, it’s a silent film. It does not feel like it’s two-plus hours. Is it three hours?

Heather E. Ash:
Good heavens.

David Read:
It’s a long film.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s a commitment.

David Read:
And it doesn’t feel… 1 hour 54 minutes.

Heather E. Ash:
Just feels like three hours.

David Read:
I’ve read somewhere that it was long, but it doesn’t feel like that. The story is riveting, and it is about a world above controlling the world below for resources and for everything else. Tell me about “Beneath the Surface” and putting our characters in a completely different situation.

Heather E. Ash:
I’m pretty sure I wrote this at the end of my time on staff, and it was held over for the–

David Read:
This is still Season Three?

Heather E. Ash:
Still Season Three. So, four scripts got written during Season Three, and I did not realize that I came on… I went to Vancouver two weeks before “Learning Curve” was shot. And I was already working on “Foothold” when… We were watching dailies and cutting the first editing passes. And then it came out on July 23rd, 1999. So, that was cool to watch that, or to read that. And “New Ground” I think I was working on when “Foothold” was filming, because there’s a lot of dangling. So, Teryl also had comments about the dangling like, “There should be a writer dangling up there, possibly,” was something she said to me as she walked past. And I was like, “Well, if I didn’t have the script to write, I’d totally do it with y’all.” We’ll expect it to be up there after the fact. Like, once they’re done, before they strike the set, you’ll find me up there some night. So, TV is a machine, and before we got “New Ground,” I don’t think there were issues with that. But again, 25 years. We were trying to break that story. And we were definitely… There was a rush, because we’d used up a lot of our scripts already. And everybody was working on stuff, and you have the budget, and you have everything, and we were about to go on hiatus for three weeks. So, there was a lot of pressure to get stuff written quickly. What I don’t remember, but now I clearly… was happening was, “Can you get this draft done quickly?” Which back then was two weeks, and that would be wonderful for current staffs to get… where now you can write a draft in two days to a week is the expectation.

David Read:
The expectation now is two days to a week?

Heather E. Ash:
Yeah. And even after Stargate we were getting that expectation, scripts written last minute and everything was last minute. So, when you’re in TV, this is a very fast-moving train that…

David Read:
So, much for quality.

Heather E. Ash:
… you have to keep going. The fact that we get the quality that we do out of so many of these shows. And it’s not… that was back when we had staffs. And I alluded to the writer’s strike last time we were here, but one of the big problems that people were having is these writers rooms from the studio that were put together to come up with concepts, and then those writers got cast off, and one person is writing most of the scripts. Or they bring in two new writers, who they don’t have to pay that much, to help write the scripts that have to get produced. And no one is getting compensated for that. I’ve definitely seen my residuals fall. I’m still getting checks for Stargate, thank you. I just got one a couple weeks ago. Thank you. That’s what paid for that air conditioner over there.

David Read:
How often do they come in? Is it months or–

Heather E. Ash:
Once a year.

David Read:
It’s once a year?

Heather E. Ash:
Once a year.

David Read:
That’s how they do it. OK.

Heather E. Ash:
About once a year. That’s how the WGC does it. And then there’s the Canadian Screenwriters Association. So, they have definitely gotten less and less, whereas Stargate is much more out there than it ever was in rerun time. It was syndicated. My episodes are out on the streaming services, but we’re not really getting a lot of money off of that, considering how often it’s viewed. We the writers, we the creative people. Are the studios making money? You betcha. That’s what the writers were striking for, and they made some really great progress in there. The agreement that was finally reached, this is WGA, although I understand the WGC either just finished their negotiations or are still in negotiations, trying to get the same level of… Studios are very bottom line, make it the cheapest possible, looking to have AI write stuff. You cannot… It’s not writers in a collective to drain the studios of all the money unfairly. This is the creative process. You cannot condense the creative process and widgetize it. It’s how writers work. You’ve gotta have that respect.

David Read:
Can I get inside baseball with you for a couple of minutes?

Heather E. Ash:
Sure.

David Read:
Your residuals are they… So, they’re not locked in from when you created the content originally? Are they renegotiated through the guild over a certain period of time? How does that work, to the novice?

Heather E. Ash:
The basic overview is that… When I was on Stargate, this was happening when you had DVDs. Still DVD sets. And when you had syndicated. We did not yet have streaming. We did have cable, and then you have foreign. So, if it goes to DVD, there’s a certain base rate that the guild set for what kind of residual that you’re gonna get. It’s usually like a percentage of something.

David Read:
So, physical media is set for all time in terms of what it is that you get? As long as Stargate is produced in a box, that is what you get. Or does it reset when a contr[act]–

Heather E. Ash:
Unless it’s renegotiated, ’cause the contract’s…

David Read:
Unless it’s renegotiated.

Heather E. Ash:
…renegotiated every five years. Usually it’s… But the technology has changed. Stuff doesn’t come in DVDs anymore. And when streaming was new, the studios said, “Well, we’re not gonna make any money off this so we can’t negotiate this.” Fast-forward and we knew it was BS when they said it. But it was a negotiation point that the Writers Guild gave up on, and then in those five years it became the main thing. And then it’s a cash cow. That’s why you’re seeing people are not able to make a living off TV writing. Thank goodness. I miss it, but holy cow, you can’t… At least I was paid to have no life. No, for real, ’cause when you’re on a show, you don’t have a life for nine months or however long that is. Except on Stargate, we did have a life. But these shows, where they have no staff and then you’re coming in, and it used to be you were on a show for nine months and so that was your year. Now you’re on for a few weeks, and then they’ll hold your contract so you can’t go look for another job. It’s nuts. It’s not artist-friendly, and it’s not…

David Read:
It’s not sustainable, it’s not anything.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s not sustainable. And the crews, they need to work and they need fair pay. IATSE, I think, is about to go on strike. They’re in negotiation right now. And let me tell you how much I fan-girl Lindsay Dougherty, the Teamsters leader of the LA people, because she does not take shit. I would watch a show about her any day.

David Read:
I wouldn’t be surprised if they do one at some point.

Heather E. Ash:
I would watch that show.

David Read:
Maybe you should make it.

Heather E. Ash:
Sure. There’ll be a lot of swearing.

David Read:
Hey, don’t worry. It’s on cable.

Heather E. Ash:
The woman has a Jimmy Hoffa tattoo on her bicep. I am not lying.

David Read:
Oh, wow. Really?

Heather E. Ash:
She comes from union people out of Detroit. Her dad was a big union guy.

David Read:
That’s where it came from.

Heather E. Ash:
This woman does not take your shit.

David Read:
Well, it sounds like they picked right. Tell me about “Beneath the Surface.”

Heather E. Ash:
“Beneath the Surface.” I seem to like people losing their minds. Maybe it’s a crutch. But again, a way to get our characters in a situation where they might remove their memories and see how they act.

David Read:
See what stays the same.

Heather E. Ash:
Exactly. Who are we when we come down to it — erase our memories — but who are we temperamentally at the most basic? So, this was also supposed to be, at the time that I wrote it, we had not addressed the O’Neill-Samantha Carter growing relationship thing, and this was going to be the fan service of we’ll get them to kiss but it won’t mean anything. Because I’d left the show by then, when I saw it aired, I was quite surprised that there was no kissing, and I was going, “What happened?”

David Read:
So, it was in the script?

Heather E. Ash:
It was totally in the script. And it did not happen, and I was a bit put out. I wanted to be the person to do the thing. But I see why, because in the interim, they had written other episodes that had walked up to that point. And it didn’t have a place anymore. And this is TV. I’ve said before, it’s always changing, you have to go with the flow, and so they pulled it.

David Read:
Well, her head on his shoulder has been screen grabbed so many times and put in so many different places. I think that it was… it’s definitely not a kiss, but there is a familiarity there. There is a place of safety…

Heather E. Ash:
An intimacy.

David Read:
… for both of them there, and intimacy.

Heather E. Ash:
And I like that with my– I’m glad we’ve moved to that point. We’ve moved away from if there’s a male and female lead, they must get together. I still don’t think we’ve seen enough of that platonic but very deep friendship between men and women on TV. Taking my current sensibility back to there maybe would have put that in a little bit more, hit that a little bit harder. I did have in there too a Barry Manilow joke that got… they would not let me have Sam say… ’cause there’s that part where they’re going through things that they remember that don’t make sense, and Sam’s like, “This guy must have been my boyfriend or something, Barry Manilow.” And it was supposed to be a joke, and now I’m realizing it would have been even funnier if O’Neill said it. Like, “I really like this guy, Barry Manilow, and I can’t figure out why, but I think he writes songs for the world.”

David Read:
I have to ask–

Heather E. Ash:
They would not do it.

David Read:
So, is that why it was replaced to Homer? Was that where it was inserted?

Heather E. Ash:
Probably.

David Read:
Because he talks about… “He’s bald and he wears a short-sleeved shirt,” and I’m thinking he’s gonna say Hammond, and he says Homer.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s the diversion, the distractor. That’s the joke. I also had… It wasn’t this episode but a previous one, I said that O’Neill should say Bueller. Jonathan told me, “No, because that’s too of the now,” which was of the then.

David Read:
It’s ’80s.

Heather E. Ash:
But, “No one’s gonna get that.” I know. “And Ferris Bueller is huge, Jonathan. Everyone’s gonna get Bueller.”

David Read:
O’Neill was in black ops. What do you think he would have been watching? He would have been watching movies they would have sent him overseas.

Heather E. Ash:
Even kids these days — “Kids these days” — they know the Bueller reference. So, I think that was a missed–

David Read:
Maybe more than ever.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes, because they have access to everything.

David Read:
Exactly right.

Heather E. Ash:
And Peter DeLuise did come up to me later. He’s like, “I totally would have left Bueller in. You’re right, that’s funny.” And that’s high praise. Any time I can get someone to acknowledge my funniness on a staff full of funny guys, that was a good day.

David Read:
You talked a little bit about not being married to things because they can just change. Is there a certain callus that you’ve gotta build up to losing something like that, and when do you know to fight for it?

Heather E. Ash:
I think on this show in particular, there were things in “Learning Curve” — there were things in every episode that I had put in, and the guys would go, “No,” for whatever reason. They didn’t like it or it didn’t sit well or they didn’t think it was the best way to go about it. Brad Wright is like the diplomat of all time. This man should go work for the UN.

David Read:
“It’s okay. It’ll be fine.”

Heather E. Ash:
Totally his, we still say this in my family. “It’ll be fine.” You have to draw it out. “It’ll be fine. Don’t worry, it’ll be fine.” He said, I saw this in the journal, “Let me pitch you how I thought would be a good way,” which is really code for, “I’m gonna do it this way, but I’m going to give you the opportunity to agree with the change I’m about to make.”

David Read:
“That’s great, man.”

Heather E. Ash:
I think it was during “New Ground.” There was something during “New Ground.” No, I’m sorry, this was “Foothold” too. There was a lot at “Foothold” with the body swapping, because Richard Dean Anderson would not do a body swap with Sam Carter. So, he would not pretend to be Sam Carter. Or maybe it was Teryl Rothery. I don’t remember, but that was very clearly stated, so we had to switch it up but Brad was like, “So, here’s how I’d pitch it,” and he starts out, and then I guess I finished it, and I started acting it out. And this is in the room, and Jonathan and Robert are in there going, “What are you two doing?” But it was that great thing about writing in a writer’s room is when you get people who are on the same page, you always come up with something better. You just start riffing off each other, and that’s one of the things. We did not work in the room together a lot, and especially by the time we were up to “New Ground,” we’re getting toward the end of the season, there’s pressure to get a whole lot of scripts in the can. And the guys, especially Robert Cooper, who wasn’t yet a supervising producer, he’s trying to prove himself. And Brad and Jonathan are trying to get shows together and write shows and do all their other stuff. There’s, they’ve gotta save time. So, I think with “New Ground” — definitely with “New Ground” — and with “Beneath the Surface,” they would take the rewrite because they could get it done faster. It’s easier for them to instead of try to comment, and so they said, “You make things better when you rewrite it, so yay? But we don’t have time to wait for you.” ‘Cause I’m not the fastest writer on the planet, and they needed it like this. And they’re the bosses. It’s their show. I am there to do what they want. I give my perspective, I bring a new perspective to it, and they were always good about — most of the time, except for that Bueller thing — listening and honoring it. But at the end of the day, we got a lot of money riding on this machine that needs to be fed and will not stop until the end of the season. So, sometimes that means things gotta get done.

David Read:
Stephen King says in his memoir On Writing that he got a note early on in his career when he was still submitting to Playboy and other magazines, his short stories. His note that he received was from a publisher: “Second draft equals first draft minus 10%.” Do you think there’s truth to that?

Heather E. Ash:
Was that hard and fast? I think your first draft is going to be… it’s not gonna be perfect. Hopefully. And that’s also the problem of perfectionist people, like me, even now. You want it to go in, and you have this idea of it being perfect, and it’s not gonna be there, and you keep trying to make it better. And no, it’s complete crap. I call it the spew draft. There’s a pre-writer’s draft, the spew draft, and then you go back and you make that better. Sometimes it’s first draft minus 50% plus 60%. There’s a math there. Take out all the crappy stuff. And I hate writing the first draft. I hate, hate writing the first draft, but I love rewriting. So, I’m actually much better. My drafts get progressively better as you go.

David Read:
As you would hope that would be the sequence.

Heather E. Ash:
It does not always work. It does not always work for a lot of writers. A lot of writers really like the first draft, and then rewriting is hard for them. And I’ve always enjoyed rewriting. But sometimes it’s hard to know when to stop. At a certain point, you make… you’re starting to do lateral changes, and then having someone come in and say, “Let me take that from you” is a good thing. But if you’re gonna be on a show long-term, you wanna be the person– Because as I said, Brad and Jonathan and then later Robert, it’s their job to get these scripts in shape. And Brad would do a pass, or Jonathan would do a pass, and that’s on top of all the other work they have to do. The best thing you can do for your boss is get as close to possible as quickly as possible out of the gate because that makes their lives easier. And be great to work with.

David Read:
Any other thoughts on “Beneath the Surface?” I love the situation that Hammond’s put in this episode as well.

Heather E. Ash:
In what sense?

David Read:
Major Griff is coming back through — I think it was Griff — in just a snow jumper, and he doesn’t know what’s going on. He has no information. The General doesn’t like to not have information. They could be dead. And Don played that well. This was a guy that does not like being out of contact with his people, any of them.

Heather E. Ash:
And he cares about them. I did pitch a story… Did I talk about this? I don’t think I talked about this last time. A story I desperately wanted to do about Hammond; we meet him, and it’s a personal story about Hammond that would investigate… ’cause he was a widow in Stargate, but he still wore his wedding ring.

David Read:
Yep. I have it. Right there.

Heather E. Ash:
You have his wedding ring? Look at this.

David Read:
I don’t mean to cut you off.

Heather E. Ash:
No. This is cool. Waiting in suspense. Look at that.

David Read:
There were two of them.

Heather E. Ash:
How’d you get that?

David Read:
I have one.

Heather E. Ash:
There were?

David Read:
Propworx. We sold them. We sold the first one, then I paid the value of that one for the second one. Don is important to me. I’ll tell you that…

Heather E. Ash:
Don was a great guy.

David Read:
I’ll tell you that story some other time. I’ve not heard this story.

Heather E. Ash:
No, because we didn’t do this story. But I had this idea, and I did love it, and I didn’t get to do it, that we meet Hammond and things are terribly, terribly wrong, and he’s having bizarre dreams about SG-1, that they’re coming to him in dreams, and we learn that it is suspected PTSD because SG-1 died in something, some incident. They’re dead, there were funerals, bodies weren’t found, whatever. And he’s grieving over them but still has to push through. And I think his former wife was also involved. He also thinks he might be losing his mind a little bit. There’s a dementia thing happening and he’s gonna have to leave the military. But the consensus was we didn’t wanna put that much on Don, and maybe it would be too much to play at this point in the show.

David Read:
Was he retired, or was he still working at SGC?

Heather E. Ash:
Oh, he was still working at SGC. So, this was–

David Read:
Hammond would have been.

Heather E. Ash:
Hammond–

David Read:
But we learn through the course of early in the story that they’re gone.

Heather E. Ash:
They are gone, but they’re not physically gone. This would be the cool tech thing. They phase shifted or something, and they’re trying to communicate with him from this other dimension, kinda like Prince of Darkness, where–

David Read:
Through his dreams?

Heather E. Ash:
Yeah. And he thinks it’s dementia. He thinks it’s grief and that maybe he’s not cut out to be general anymore, so he’s gonna leave. And here’s the problem. If he leaves, then they really are lost forever. But the end of the story was that he took off his wedding ring because he was able to let go of his late wife. But I wanted to see these parts of Hammond, and Don Davis was such a sweetie, and God, that man was in everything Canadian back in the ’80s and ’90s. He was everywhere on movies and things. So, to get that very character-close view into his world I think would have been really interesting to play with.

David Read:
The show established in “Tin Man” that his wife died of cancer, but you can see in every scene where he holds up his left hand, you can see the ring. And so, the fact that you gravitated towards that and you could’ve made it a plot point. He takes the ring off at the end and he moves on. I would have loved to have seen that.

Heather E. Ash:
Me too.

David Read:
Sounds really cool.

Heather E. Ash:
Brad did tell me it makes no… Even though his wife’s dead, he would still wear his ring, and like, young whippersnapper…

David Read:
It’s sentimental.

Heather E. Ash:
”Don’t you know marriage?” And I was like, “I get that.” But it’s interesting. It’s just some place that we could go with this tiny little detail.

David Read:
The thought was that it would be too much for Don for an episode?

Heather E. Ash:
I think so. And just scheduling, and you have to pay these other actors, you know. Our leads are gonna get paid no matter what, so it just wasn’t the right time to pursue that level of story in terms of what the guys planned for the whole season.

David Read:
It’s interesting because I think that Don’s strongest episode is an episode that he’s not in very much of, which is in Season Four. There is an episode called — and I used to know these off the top of my head — “Chain Reaction” where the granddaughters are threatened by the NID.

Heather E. Ash:
I don’t think I saw this one.

David Read:
It is a great episode. You should watch it.

Heather E. Ash:
Oh, how dare I? Yes.

David Read:
The girls get picked up from school in a black car. These guys take them for a ride and then show up at his house with them and then leave. The girls are fine, but he gets the message. And they are trying–

Heather E. Ash:
Is he doing his stewing, silent–

David Read:
He leaves SGC because he understands that now since they have closed that beta Stargate down, the rogue ID operation is not getting the technology back to Earth through the beta Gate, and they want to be back in control again. And so O’Neill and Maybourne have to go to Senator Kinsey, Ronnie Cox, and force him to stop and reinstate Hammond. So, I am interested to hear this because it’s very clear that they were interested in pursuing something for Don, but also, even though he’s the center of the story, is not taking up the bulk of the episode. So, this is fascinating to me.

Heather E. Ash:
And it’s also… you might wanna hold that in your back pocket for later, like the hyper hurricane thing that I talked about. That’s the executive producer’s job. Like, “Hey, we might wanna use that in a different way. We don’t want to set that canon right now when we might be able to do something even different and even better with it later on.”

David Read:
Very cool.

Heather E. Ash:
But such is TV.

David Read:
That’s it. We’ve got one more, which is one of my favorites. I love the Cassandra episodes. This is “Rite of Passage.” Tell me about “Rite of Passage” for Season Five. This probably was not written at the end of Season Three.

Heather E. Ash:
It was not. So, in July of 2000, Robert Cooper calls me, and he’s like, “Hey, how’s it going?” And I said, “Well, my dad just died last week.” And I was in St. Louis where I grew up, and he’s like, “Oh my god, I’m so sorry.” But they had been calling me to see if I’d be interested in coming in to pitch the show again for a freelance episode, which is a huge honor, and I so appreciated that opportunity. It took a while from there because I remember I turned that in somewhere in… I wanna say, late November of 2000. So, my idea was basically, again, totally ripping things off, which I’m very good at apparently. Carrie, let’s muck around with Cassandra, and she’s an alien. Let’s not forget she’s an alien. I know it was much more… My version attempted to go more toward Rick again and O’Neill, because they’ve had that close relationship. And I believe that the guys did not wanna tread back in that same storyline. And I don’t think Rick was available for that episode to that degree. So, they made it into a Carter [and] Doc Fraiser thing, which worked just as well. And now that I am an adult with children of my own, I get a lot more from this episode than I did as the youngster writing it.

David Read:
How so?

Heather E. Ash:
Well, it’s like the John Hughes films, where those… The films about the young people and the adults. We’re now older than those parents were in those movies and we identify less with the teenagers now and more with the parents. “Yeah, those kids are acting like idiots.” “No, you’re grounded, kid. This is not cute. You’re not finding yourself. Get back in your room.” So, having had teenagers and the whole puberty thing, and Brad, his girls, I think, were [in] elementary school, but slightly older. And these are… He was a dad, he got it. So, I think it’s, especially now looking back, very realistic and very nice in how it shows the relationship between parent and child. And I think we didn’t see that. We don’t need O’Neill to be the dad all the time. ‘Cause being a parent is tough, especially when it’s like, “You’re not my mom, you’re not the boss of me,” and it’s an adoption situation. That’s a million times worse. I know some adoptive parents. This is not an easy gig for them either.

David Read:
No. I, and I think that it’s appropriate because it’s established at the end of “Singularity” that Janet was looking to become a mother. And Sam says, “I think it’s quite possible that she’ll take her.” By the beginning of Season Two, that’s already established. I never thought that we’d get to see this character again, and it makes a whole lot of sense that this young woman would be heavily in Sam’s orbit for the rest of her life. There is a photo of Colleen Rennison as Cassandra in Sam’s office in Atlantis in Season Four.

Heather E. Ash:
Is there?

David Read:
They went and got a photo of Colleen, and she’s there.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s really cool character work right there.

David Read:
It’s probably Amanda… at Amanda’s request. Maybe not, but someone was paying attention. And when–

Heather E. Ash:
I bet it was probably Amanda, ’cause she’s a director now, and she’s very good.

David Read:
She’s looking for those kinds of things. In her house, in Season Five, when we see Sam’s house, it’s full of memorabilia that fans have given her, quilts and all this stuff. That’s Amanda. Absolutely. And I love, and I think that most fans would agree with me, the scene where Janet comes in and points the gun at Nirrti. Mama bear has been poked. And Cassandra’s not making it, and now she’s gonna do whatever she has to do, like Jack did with Merrin, whatever she has to do to protect Cassandra’s life. And Don’s line as Hammond, “Then I should remind you that the woman who’s holding the gun to your head is Cassandra’s mother.”

Heather E. Ash:
That’s a good line.

David Read:
What a good scene.

Heather E. Ash:
That was not my line, I don’t think. That was really a fantastic line.

David Read:
What was it like bringing Nirrti back?

Heather E. Ash:
That was a Jonathan/Brad thing. So, we needed to pad out that story, or at least get to the reason behind why this was happening. We can’t just stand around and watch it happen; we have to go investigate. So, because I was not that up on the mythology part of things, the guys said, “Hey, we’re gonna bring Nirrti back with this one, and we’re gonna go to the planet and explore.”

David Read:
So, you weren’t gonna go to Hanka? OK.

Heather E. Ash:
Yeah, that was… And I’m not on staff anymore, so I’m a freelancer. So, when they call me, I turn in my outline, I go through all the steps like before. They do the discussion, and then they bring me the notes, and then we talk about the notes. And then I implement the notes. And there are things on there that I think did make it in. I was a little bit looser, a little bit more with the fun than I had been. ‘Cause by the end of the first year, I was very much switched into the, “I need to get this right. I need to be impressive, and not so much with the… let’s explore this and play around a little bit.” So, going back to that. And I think it turned out pretty well. I wasn’t at the time a fan of the new Cassandra being recast, and this is all due respect to the actress — this is not her — I am this weird person that gets attached to characters, and the original character, and if you change that up, I can’t handle it. So, that was a mental block for me, is like, “This isn’t the Cassandra I envisioned when I was writing this episode.”

David Read:
Yes. I remember watching the episode, and I was, like, “Colleen?” Because she’s already Stargate-established. But that’s not her character. She was in Season Two, and so it took me a minute to get into it as well. ‘Cause I’m sure you’re writing it with Katie [Stuart] in mind. She is that character. I’m sure that was disappointing when you found we couldn’t get her back, scheduling, or she’s not interested, or what have you. I tried to get her on.

Heather E. Ash:
It was a scheduling issue. And again, no disrespect to the actress, who went in there and did a really great job. I had this vision for how it would turn out. And it never turns out the way you think it will. What’s in your head is rarely, if ever, on the screen completely, except when you’re hanging people from the ceiling. That was cool. That was better than what I thought. But for this, it just felt really off. I couldn’t really enjoy it ’cause I was too close to it. Now I can enjoy the heck out of it.

David Read:
Anything else from this episode that stands out?

Heather E. Ash:
I think it’s funny that everyone thinks that… Or not everyone, but there’s a huge group of people who are shipping Doc Fraiser and Sam Carter for this episode. God bless them.

David Read:
I think that there’s… One of the DVD special features for the show, Amanda says, “It was important for us that these two were friends and not rivals.”

Heather E. Ash:
Yes.

David Read:
They easily could have been.

Heather E. Ash:
How? How could they have been rivals? They had different jobs.

David Read:
That’s true.

Heather E. Ash:
Two women in the same place doesn’t mean they’re not gonna like each other.

David Read:
I’m saying it’s possible.

Heather E. Ash:
I’m not getting on you, David. I’m sorry. I’ll be good.

David Read:
I’m just hearing my mom in the back of my head.

Heather E. Ash:
Nice.

David Read:
I had posted some…

Heather E. Ash:
Thanks, David.

David Read:
I’m very close to my mother, and someone, a female actress, on my interviews, was criticizing a costume designer, a costume fitter for mistreating her. And the actress was like, “And how could she do that? My sister.” And my mom was sitting there afterwards watching with me. She’s like, “Well, I don’t know what world that woman’s from, but women cut each other down all the time.”

Heather E. Ash:
Yes, this is true. One could say it’s in service to the patriarchy within which we’re raised. And the catfighting. But it gets generated and I am sick to death of this. This is how they divide you so you can’t get power.

David Read:
That’s right.

Heather E. Ash:
I’ve become much more radical in my older years. I thought I was a feminist before.

David Read:
I think it’s more than just power. I think that the demonstration between Carter and Fraiser is a far more productive message to send in a working environment, and I really do love that dynamic. I think that is one of the best reflections of a quality work and personal relationship in the entire franchise. You give it to two actors, and they can make anything dance right off the page, and they do.

Heather E. Ash:
I really like that, and I think at the time, we weren’t seeing a lot of that. It was, “Oh, they’re gonna be rivals. Oh, they’re gonna catfight.” Like the Olympic athletes or two actresses, “Oh, of course they’re fighting,” and it’s, “What? They’re not fighting.” Had there been two women writers on the show at the same time, probably people would have assumed we were fighting. It’s silly. It’s not productive. I get where that desire they’re in a relationship comes from because also at that time, and even now, we’re not seeing that representation on the screen, and by the way, Happy Pride Month to all you ladies. Happy Juneteenth. We are having Juneteenth today.

David Read:
That’s June, it’s Juneteenth, absolutely.

Heather E. Ash:
It is Juneteenth.

David Read:
It’s Wednesday. I keep thinking it’s always on a Monday.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s on the 19th.

David Read:
The 19th.

Heather E. Ash:
It is the 19th. Yes.

David Read:
It doesn’t move.

Heather E. Ash:
So, I don’t even know what day it is anymore, so I was like, “Juneteenth, somewhere,” I guess.

David Read:
It’s true. Absolutely.

Heather E. Ash:
But we don’t see that representation. How many women did you have in a series that were actually working together at any given moment? How many men were able to have that kind of emotional intimacy? I’m trying to think back to anything in the first four seasons that would have gestured to that.

David Read:
I was raised on Star Trek, so I am an exception. Some of my favorite scenes are scenes between Deanna Troi and Beverly Crusher in TNG. But for the wider stretch, I completely agree. In terms of — and that’s for the heroes, but for the villains — I have to share this anecdote with you. Jacqueline Samuda, who plays Nirrti, and I have had several conversations, and I went and asked Jacqueline at one point, “Let me know if I’m reading into this,” I told her. But when Fraiser holds the gun to her face, she gets taller. I’m thinking to myself that what Nirrti is thinking is, “Even though this person is a stupid little human, I have slightly more respect for them than I did just a moment ago for standing up to me this way.” And Nirrti said, “That’s exactly right. That’s what I intended.” And I love that character. I love Jacqueline’s portrayal of that character, and there is something to be said for when a good actor can devour the role of a villain and make you go, “Ooh, OK.” And she does.

Heather E. Ash:
Absolutely. And I’m gonna take this over to a side comment off of SG-1, still Brad Wright-related. My son and I are watching Travelers. I told you this in an email, ’cause we always try to find a sci-fi show to watch. And it’s really interesting ’cause Brad Wright created that show, and to see the parallels, the same themes that are coming up that we had in SG-1. You’ve got the government conspiracy thing going. But these relationships are o much further developed between the main characters. The character David, who is essentially just a guy who takes care of other people. He’s a social worker, but he’s taking care of Marcy, and that is his main goal. And the women are tough. When Carly pulls — sorry, spoilers — when she pulls out the armament that she’s been keeping in her house and it’s, “Damn, all right then.” It’s just delightful to see all of these things. And you have men being in a very nurturing role, all of them, and the women are very tough and very, “We’re going to get this done.”

David Read:
But also have the ability to be vulnerable.

Heather E. Ash:
All of them do. It really is.

David Read:
Anyone who has not watched Travelers, you gotta watch it.

Heather E. Ash:
Oh my God, watch it.

David Read:
So, I sat down with Brad a few years ago and I said, “Cards on the table, I haven’t seen it yet.” He said, “You have to watch it. Good show.” And I went home and I did. I was waiting for the right time.

Heather E. Ash:
Brad’s awesome.

David Read:
But it’s Brad Wright. You put two people in a room together, you’re gonna see some sparks on all different strata of levels. So, it’s great stuff.

Heather E. Ash:
And so much fun. It’s the same tone. If you watch enough television– something that we like doing is guess who the writer is before the credit comes on. On shows where I had friends, I’ll say, “Oop, this is his episode,” and he’ll go, “How do you know that?” I’m like, “Just sounds like them.” And when we talk about TV writers, when you’re talking up-and-coming ones, you have a voice. People say, “Well, how do you do that on TV?” It’s, “You just do.” Where, depending on the showrunner, depending on the show, the way you approach things is always going to be very one person.

David Read:
It’s a signature, a sensibility. I do that with scores in television and film, “That’s John Debney. There it is.” There’s a certain lilt and cadence in the makeup of what you’re listening to. And you just intuit it as a person. And I think that that’s A, sometimes it’s a little disappointing because it’s, “Oh, I can’t really be surprised anymore.” But B, on the other hand it’s like I’m picking up on certain things, certain patterns in the overall makeup of what I’m watching that are standing out, the firmament of what it is that’s being presented. I’m blabbing.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s what’s delightful about knowing Bra. Hhopefully the artists that you know are good at their work. Nothing’s worse than having a friend who’s writing or doing work that sucks and you have to say nice things about it.

David Read:
Been there.

Heather E. Ash:
Very interesting. But when they’re good, it’s always such a delight. And for Brad, I just love… Travelers takes me back to that place on Stargate, where he, it’s like hanging out, not that we hung out, but being in that very funny, very encouraging, very nurturing space for as much as we could do. I know that probably they would put more dogs in it. There were always dogs around the office, multiple dogs. I guess one day Rick was sitting in the hallway just covered in dogs.

David Read:
Dogs are the best people.

Heather E. Ash:
Dogs are the best people. That line came by honestly and there were always dogs. And these weren’t random dogs. People had them. Everyone brought their dogs in and they would wander around the office and I liked them.

David Read:
Travelers is Brad stripped of a visual effects budget in most cases, the rubber meets the road. It’s great drama.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s really good drama.

David Read:
I’m not entirely correct. There are some visual effects in it. But it’s completely set on Earth and it’s worth everyone’s time because there’s, I think, a lot of broader implications for what’s coming with AI.

Heather E. Ash:
For climate change.

David Read:
It’s a good AI.

Heather E. Ash:
I cannot not think of Travelers now during this heat wave. And you look at the trees and what they’re saying. And even when it first came out, it was not to the point where we are now. If you want a great book to read everybody, read The Heat Will Kill You First. I don’t remember who the author is. I apologize. It’s non-fiction but it talks about heat is the biggest weather killer in the world. Kills more people than any other natural disaster or weather phenomenon and we’re only getting hotter.

David Read:
This is true. Any other thoughts on this particular episode?

Heather E. Ash:
I don’t know except Robert said once that, not this episode, but while I was on staff he said, “A ship full of sailors couldn’t offend Heather.” I was not in the room, this was reported to me. ‘Cause Jonathan had used a euphemism that could be considered inappropriate in a work setting and was worrying about it to someone else that he had offended me.

David Read:
And Robert said that and someone’s, “Oh, Heather’s gotta hear that.”

Heather E. Ash:
It was reported to me that it was overheard by someone else. And that made me feel very good and respected. And we called the Naquadah reactor a double-wide Borg trailer.

David Read:
That’s exactly what it is.

Heather E. Ash:
It is.

David Read:
The Orbanian one. That’s exactly right. One of the most beautiful props that there is.

Heather E. Ash:
Absolutely gorgeous. Layers and layers of wood.

David Read:
The Mark II has — this is the Mark I behind me here –the Mark II has an Orbanian Naquadah reactor in the middle of it, and then up on top and below, collapsible columns as well. So, that prop was used again.

Heather E. Ash:
That wasn’t mine. Mine was a box.

David Read:
Yours was a box, but they used the prop again later.

Heather E. Ash:
It sat on my shelf.

David Read:
Man, that is cool.

Heather E. Ash:
It was, and then I had to give it back.

David Read:
Of course.

Heather E. Ash:
Because they needed it for an episode. I’m like, “But I like it. I wanted to keep it.” And Brad was concerned that I really did think I could keep this several hundred dollar prop that they …

David Read:
Maybe more.

Heather E. Ash:
… needed for the show. For sure. And there was light-up bits inside. This was gorgeous.

David Read:
Poor double-wide screen.

Heather E. Ash:
I totally would not mind having that if you come across it.

David Read:
I will put you at the top of the list when I do because I am on the lookout …

Heather E. Ash:
Will you?

David Read:
… for, at the very least, a replica, because the fan stuff now is really good. But that’s an intricate prop. It really looks like two boards sitting next to each other.

Heather E. Ash:
It very much is.

David Read:
Very much.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s plywood. It’s balsa wood cut into different shapes and layered on top of each other.

David Read:
Understood.

Heather E. Ash:
But open on the inside. It has a little switch underneath it. You can turn the light on and off.

David Read:
You were talking about rarely does it — it meaning whatever it is that you’re working on — turn out exactly as you expected. Was there anything in the time that you were on the show that appeared on the screen and it was like, “That is exactly what I thought it would be.” Not necessarily a prop but a line or a, “I envisioned it this way, and there it is.”

Heather E. Ash:
I think a lot of it was in “Foothold,” like when he unbuttons her shirt and says, “She’s just an alien. She’s just an alien.” Which I know got a huge reaction from the crew when they first read the script, one of the first drafts.

David Read:
“Yeah, it’s an alien, all right.”

Heather E. Ash:
They thought that was really funny. And that was my line, so that was… And it was fun to watch them really run with it. It’s my favorite episode because I know what went into it and how much we struggled to come up with something that worked in terms of the device. That was hard. It was a long process. But what we got at the end, despite the ooze, was that it was really a rollicking, good adventure, and everyone got to be a little bit different.

David Read:
It’s a great show.

Heather E. Ash:
Whether they liked it or not.

David Read:
The wires will hold. Just hang on.

Heather E. Ash:
No, I’m talking about people swapping other people’s bodies and not particularly caring that they had to play someone else. Sorry.

David Read:
I love the line where Teryl’s saying, “You should join us up there.” Did you know… have you heard… have you seen Starship Troopers?

Heather E. Ash:
No. I do need to watch it.

David Read:
Oh man, what a good show. Absolutely great movie. There is a shower scene of men and women in one shower together. It’s co-ed. It’s the future, it’s co-ed future. And the cast and the crew, someone had made a comment among the cast about, “You know, the crew should join us in this.” And so, they did.

Heather E. Ash:
Fun.

David Read:
Even though they’re not on camera, the crew are in the nude as well.

Heather E. Ash:
Seriously?

David Read:
Yes. It’s a great movie. I would love to have a conversation with you after that too because it’s very, it’s very over the top.

Heather E. Ash:
I am all with it.

David Read:
So, you’ll love it.

Heather E. Ash:
Remember when I said I was done with True Detective in our last… So, this is interesting. I didn’t like the gore and the, and I specifically name-checked True Detective: Night Country came out. Jodie Foster. The latest… Have you seen this yet?

David Read:
I have not. Is it worth a look?

Heather E. Ash:
It is amazing.

David Read:
I love Jodie. So, is she in front of or behind the camera this time?

Heather E. Ash:
She’s in front of it.

David Read:
She’s in front of it.

Heather E. Ash:
And it is amazing. Well done. Now let’s talk about the female perspective here. And I know it was… The original creator of True Detective was not a fan of this, but it’s what you can do when you get someone new behind the camera and behind the script to give you a different perspective. And I just thought it was so well done and gripping and suspenseful and edge-of-your-seat.

David Read:
So, it is True Detective. Is it a…

Heather E. Ash:
It is True Detective.

David Read:
… is it a self-contained season? Can I watch it by itself?

Heather E. Ash:
Yes. I think that there are…

David Read:
Callbacks.

Heather E. Ash:
… Easter eggs, callbacks, which I had totally forgotten. But as a standalone season, oh my gosh. And these women are there doing a job, and they’re doing the job. Women are very centered in this whole conversation, and the Alaskan people are very centered, the tribe, and seeing the conflict through that lens is really incredible. A new take on the franchise. Just really great thriller.

David Read:
It’s six episodes. You could sleep–

Heather E. Ash:
It is not. Is it only six?

David Read:
Is it?

Heather E. Ash:
I thought it was eight maybe.

David Read:
Number of episodes says six. January to February 2024.

Heather E. Ash:
OK. Then I trust you.

David Read:
It feels longer.

Heather E. Ash:
There are some times when it gets a little silly.

David Read:
Like Metropolis.

Heather E. Ash:
But how they wrap it up, it’s like, “Oh my God.” Metropolis. It really is… It’s so good.

David Read:
OK. I’ll add it to the list. Have you seen Twin Peaks?

Heather E. Ash:
Three Body Problem.

David Read:
Three Body Problem, I have every intention of seeing that as well. I love the book. I can’t believe that they renamed the aliens.

Heather E. Ash:
I have read the book.

David Read:
The Trisolarans, it’s what they’re called in the books, and they’ve renamed them. I don’t know why, but they did. But the concept, the whole idea–

Heather E. Ash:
Americans.

David Read:
Right. The whole idea of it, the concept is a great.

Heather E. Ash:
I’m not gonna give anything away, but I was like, “A particle physicist wouldn’t say that.” And then they call that out, and it’s delightful. I love it. Love. It’s a kind of sci-fi I wanna be.

David Read:
I also just watched Twin Peaks a few months ago.

Heather E. Ash:
Good to hear.

David Read:
Season One and Season Two from the ’90s, and then Season Three as well, and it was… I now understand David Lynch at least a little bit.

Heather E. Ash:
Do you?

David Read:
But if you want a wild ride, I highly, highly recommend it, because it’s unlike any other television I have seen. And so much of what came out later, from Lost to all other kinds of shows, they totally got that from Twin Peaks. And they have admitted it, that elements of that happened. So, you were there from “Learning Curve” to the end of Season Three.

Heather E. Ash:
From March. I looked it up. No, I’m sorry. I was writing the outline, I think, as of January ’99. I visited the Buffy set the week before I left. And I arrived in Vancouver on March 18th. And so, we were two weeks out from production on “Learning Curve” at that point, and then October was the end of our season.

David Read:
What happened in Season Four? Were you invited to come back for Season Four?

Heather E. Ash:
Yes. So, the expectation… I had a two-year contract. TV works where if you’re good, if they like you, they’ll bring you back for the next season. I think I had… Contracts will always range. In the first year, you’ll get this, and then if there’s a second year, and so on. So, I definitely had a contract, and the expectation was it was going to be renewed. They were talking about having all our photos done later in the year. They were gonna do press packets, and all the writers would have their photos taken. And I hate having my photo taken, always have, so this was like, “Oh my god.” Not why I left. I chose to go back to L.A. because I was young, and this was my first writing gig, and it was a bit lonely up there. I think I’ve told the story of getting really bad strep throat.

David Read:
You said that.

Heather E. Ash:
Really bad strep throat. I was sick for a week and a half, and by myself. And the Canadian medical system, I mean, thumbs up. Thumbs up. But to be kinda in that position and missing my people… and I made the decision to go back, and it’s something I struggled with for quite a long time. And that feeling, not connected, ’cause all the guys I worked with were married. Again, the most sane working situation I would ever see, probably ever in any industry. They went home to their families every night, and I went home.

David Read:
You hadn’t found your person yet.

Heather E. Ash:
I hadn’t found my person. I had a pet at home. I had a bird at home that I never got to see. I had a lot of friends.

David Read:
What was the bird’s name?

Heather E. Ash:
That was Clark.

David Read:
Aw, Clark.

Heather E. Ash:
Lewis had died. I had Lewis and Clark, and Lewis had died, and he was by himself.

David Read:
This is in L.A.?

Heather E. Ash:
Yeah.

David Read:
So, you left the bird behind.

Heather E. Ash:
So, this is back in L.A. My neighbors took care of him. And then my college roommate moved into my apartment and lived there while I was gone. That worked out well. But I had a life in Los Angeles, and I can look back now, in a lot of ways… I apparently had a conversation with Brad about this, which was early on, “I just don’t feel like I fit here,” and not “It’s your first show. You wanna do a good job. Am I doing a good job? Are they just stroking my ego? What’s going on?” Trying to find your way, and it was just really, really hard. So, I made the decision to go back to L.A. in hopes that other TV shows would have me. I know now that my agent at the time really, as much as he was, “You do what you need to do,” also thinks that had I stayed, I would’ve had this, you know… Could still be up there. I could still be Canadian. The whole election thing could be irrelevant to me. I don’t know. Vancouver’s great. I go back, and I still absolutely love it there. It’s one of my favorite places in the world. Life would have been completely different.

David Read:
The velocity of ascension for so many of these writers in Stargate productions, so many of them went on to do their own shows. And based on the caliber of the work that you were putting out in Season Three, I totally believe that had you remained there, you would have been a showrunner by now. Long since.

Heather E. Ash:
Oh, thank you.

David Read:
But there’s no question in my mind: if the work that you were producing continued to be at that level, and even greater than that, there’s no question. But I get missing home and missing your people.

Heather E. Ash:
Writing for me is… can be a very… I can enjoy it. But when you attach work to it and stakes to it, it gets a little harder, and I have not quite managed… I was actually at my high school reunion this last weekend. Strangely, I was also at a big high school reunion when I was on Stargate during my hiatus. So, that’s neat. And I was talking to… I was just seeing these people and they’re like, “You used to write for TV.” And there’s still people who love Stargate SG-1 and bless your hearts. Thank you for that residual check. And you’re like, “Are you still writing? What are you doing?” And it’s like, “Well, yeah, I write but I write mostly for myself. When I have time. I don’t have a lot of it right now ’cause working.” And one of my friends is like, “You need to keep doing it. You’re good at it.” And I don’t know what it is that I don’t quite believe people… Actually, I do. Hollywood — My friends and I have had this conversation, my writer friends. Hollywood is all about, “You’re wonderful. I love you.” You never hear no. No one ever wants to catch… to say a bad thing ’cause they might have to work with you later.

David Read:
BS, BS, BS, BS.

Heather E. Ash:
Exactly.

David Read:
Where is the reality?

Heather E. Ash:
This is where I had to tell my therapist– And I’m gonna be… I came late to the therapy game, but boy did it work when I finally got there. And just describing the Hollywood experience, oh my God, a whole industry built out of gaslighting. This is why I … I’m used to gaslighting and I see it as somewhat normal. That was a big breakthrough. Is that what they call it? ‘Cause my therapist isn’t from L.A. She doesn’t know this stuff. And I had to explain, “This is how it works. This is how you have to think to be in that space.”

David Read:
People dance on eggshells around one another because you never know …

Heather E. Ash:
Always.

David Read:
… who you’re gonna be working with next and you never know who’s gonna turn around and be your boss.

Heather E. Ash:
Exactly.

Heather E. Ash:
And you don’t wanna burn the bridges.

David Read:
That’s right.

Heather E. Ash:
You wanna be good to work with, you want a reputation because people who are great to work with will always get work. Always, always. And that’s when you see the character actors, I think I’ve mentioned this, but John Ritter, I know was always a mensch. That’s why you always saw him.

David Read:
God rest his soul.

Heather E. Ash:
God rest him. It’s such terrible things. I saw the guy who played Randy Disher on Monk in one of the Travelers episodes. I went, “That’s Randy. What’s he doing there?” I’d totally forgotten he was in that. But yeah, everyone keeps getting work if you’re great to work with.

David Read:
It’s been 20 years since these episodes. I reach out to all the behind-the-scenes people. I can’t get them. Number one…

Heather E. Ash:
Because they’re working?

David Read:
… a lot of them remain behind the scenes because that’s where they want to be, and the other hand, they’re working like mad.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s so great to–

David Read:
It’s great to…

Heather E. Ash:
I’m so glad.

David Read:
They were great people and they knew what they were doing.

Heather E. Ash:
Absolutely. The most professional crew, always gracious, always quick to come up to me on set. And I feel so bad ’cause I’m bad with faces and the ADHD that I didn’t know I had at that time really problematic at times because I was, “This guy came and said hi and acted like I knew who he was.” And so, I look like a jerk. “I’m too big to know who you are.” It was like, “No, these are the people who make it happen.” This is a collaborative business and it’s not — All due respect, it’s not the director. Yes, we need a director, but that’s not the end-all be-all. This is your crew.

David Read:
No, there’s 100 people, sometimes more, involved.

Heather E. Ash:
Always.

David Read:
I have learned to keep pushing, to keep trying. Cath-Anne Ambrose who was your script coordinator, she just got back to me today and said she’ll do the show. So, you never quit trying.

Heather E. Ash:
She had a baby. You gotta start, David. You had the internet all this time. I didn’t hear from you till November.

David Read:
No, and you have every right to bust my butt over that. Absolutely.

Heather E. Ash:
I will.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s like, “Why is everyone calling me now? What happened?”

David Read:
What an extraordinary chapter of your life and what a privilege it is for me to walk down those memories with you through this whole thing. The whole Hammond story, that alone was a fantastic anecdote. Were there any others that you had bandied about that never came to be?

Heather E. Ash:
There was something about a zoo. Our people were in a zoo. Maybe that became “Beneath the Surface.” I don’t know. Because we were trying to find a name for an episode. It was “Genesis” but it was too close to “Nemesis,” so I had to change it. These little tiny things that I was trying to figure it out. There was this something… My first week there, I’m sitting in my office and this evil Goa’uld character walks by ’cause we had open windows to the hallway. He walked by and it was just like this and then several others came and they waved. And that was neat.

David Read:
It was probably Zipacna.

Heather E. Ash:
Maybe so. Was it that early Season Three? ‘Cause it was before “Learning Curve.”

David Read:
OK, maybe not.

Heather E. Ash:
Or maybe it was… No, it was–

David Read:
‘Cause he had the Carmen Miranda hat in the show. There were some good ones, for sure.

Heather E. Ash:
It was just so cool and I was busy writing scripts and trying to figure it out and trying not to screw up. But I did get down to the set. It was such a privilege to really be part of a lot of those things and to have my opinions sought out and valued from my colleagues, like we’ve talked about Andy Mikita, Martin Wood, Peter, who directed two episodes. I mean, 16-year-old me would have totally lost my mind.

David Read:
But you finally did get an authentic signed poster …

Heather E. Ash:
I got an authentic signed–

David Read:
… even though you didn’t know that you didn’t have one to begin with.

Heather E. Ash:
Right. So, let’s talk about that. It is this chapter of what I used to regret ’cause once you’re a writer you’re assumed — I think this is our generation too, maybe the new generation doesn’t feel this way — your identity is your job. Gen Z, I don’t think that is them anymore which is great.

David Read:
You don’t do one thing anymore.

Heather E. Ash:
Lord knows I have not done one thing. I have done eight things, so I think I’m on number eight now.

David Read:
As long as you’re happy. That’s the thing.

Heather E. Ash:
I look at it now, I have come to the point where I see it as what a great gig. Would I still be happy working in this business as a showrunner 20 years later? Honestly, I don’t think I was built for it. I don’t care enough about what color is that thing over there. You’re doing the job of the CEO. For millions of dollars, you’re running a production company, millions of dollars, hundreds of staff, to make TV. And I think TV is worthwhile. Boy, do I think it’s worthwhile. I love the art form. I think it is art. I love seeing everything that they’re coming out with now, and all the different representation and voices. But it was a big job.

David Read:
There’s something for everyone, and there should be.

Heather E. Ash:
There should be. You should be able to see it. Going back to the Carter-Fraiser thing. The reason that was important for people to want to project a relationship onto that, a romantic relationship, is ’cause they weren’t getting that anywhere. Again, that’s what fan fiction was for. The fix-it fic? You go do that.

David Read:
Fix-it fic.

David Read:
The sci-fi slashers thing goes way back…

Heather E. Ash:
The slash.

David Read:
… to Kirk and Spock and before.

Heather E. Ash:
I didn’t even know why it was called slash until a year ago, and then I figured it out. Duh. But I remember in my… not my interview, but my meeting the guys for this first time, I’m like, “Yeah, there’s this fan fiction called slash. Are you aware?” They were like, “Yes, we’re aware.”

David Read:
It was always coming up at Stargate conventions, even Dan Shea who played Siler brought up, “I read one online about Siler getting it on with General Hammond.”

Heather E. Ash:
I cannot even.

Heather E. Ash:
I can’t read the Stargate fan fiction either ’cause it’s not– To me, it’s not right. It doesn’t sound authentic. Of course, I might not be reading the right kind. I don’t know.

David Read:
Their voices are not easy to duplicate. Fandemonium has taken fan fic authors and adopted those authors, evolved them into novelists, and some of the novels are really good. Some not so good, but some of ’em are really good.

Heather E. Ash:
I’m not coming out against fan fic in any way, shape, or form. That’s how we got our start as writers, all of us. I’m writing down Fandemonium. But I like that no one’s ever gonna be completely satisfied with the vision of the creators. There’s a lot of ownership these days with audience feeling that they should have a say in how the show goes. And no.

David Read:
But we get– There’s something that you mentioned in the first interview and there’s something that you alluded to this time around, and it comes down to, “Is my stuff too derivative?” That’s the nugget there. And I was thinking about that today or was it yesterday when I was re-listening to the first interview that we did. And I’ve come to the conclusion that everything is derivative if you dig down deep enough.

Heather E. Ash:
Totally.

David Read:
The question isn’t necessarily fair. Because we’re not created in a vacuum. Now arguably, our dreams, sometimes I’ll spit something out and I’m like, “OK, that came from nothing. That feels totally me because I can’t relate that to anything.” But generally speaking, when we’re consciously aware, we fall in love with things and then we have an urge to reproduce and grow those things in directions that are interesting to us.

Heather E. Ash:
Thank goodness I got this outlet. I got paid to be creative. I mean, there are people who go their whole lives who want to be recognized as a creative, who want their writing recognized and don’t get to that point. And I’ve taught TV writing and screenwriting and the part I don’t like doing is the people who then want to go and go make it in Hollywood. And I had a student change his major to TV writing after taking my TV class and I was horrified. Because, “No, don’t do that. Be responsible. Go do something else.” But that didn’t convince me either at 20-something, so I’m glad I had very supportive parents who said, “Just don’t be an actress.” And it was two things. “Don’t be an actress. It’s the most unreliable profession.” So, I chose the second most unreliable one. And it was, “Don’t move to California because you’ll fall off to the sea.” And then three months after I moved to California, Northridge happened. That was very scary.

David Read:
Early ’90s.

Heather E. Ash:
1994.

Heather E. Ash:
January the 17th, I believe.

David Read:
I’ll never forget that.

Heather E. Ash:
I was supposed to start my new office job that day. I did not make it into work that morning. And then they called me wondering where I was. It’s like, “I’m in the valley.”

David Read:
Were you in St. Louis for Hurricane Andrew?

Heather E. Ash:
Did Hurricane Andrew hit St. Louis?

David Read:
I think Hurricane Andrew made … Wasn’t it Hurricane Andrew that made the Mississippi flood in 1991?

Heather E. Ash:
Oh, no. The Mississippi just flooded. I don’t know if that was a hurricane, because we were… So, the water flows from Minnesota down into the Gulf. So, before, when I moved to L.A., I drove over the flooding. I think it was just a lot of rain up north.

David Read:
Hurricane spawned 28 tornadoes along the Gulf Coast, especially Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Maybe I’m missing my … Anyway, I’m going way off-topic.

Heather E. Ash:
It would have been 1993. That would have been ’93, definitely the Mississippi flooded. It’s flooded again since then. All the climate crazy that we’ve got going. But at the time, it was a very big deal. So, I drove over the flood in Mississippi, through the Malibu fires. And when I got to North Hollywood, there was ash raining down on the car from everything being on fire in Malibu. And I didn’t know Los Angeles, so I’m like, “It could be five miles away.” I just didn’t know what we were going into. And then the earthquake three months later. So, that was… that took a while for me to get used to not having, knock wood, these extreme natural disasters occurring all the time. Keeps you nimble, living in Southern California.

David Read:
That’s true. I was in New Jersey when the earthquake hit a few months ago. That was the two days that I was there. Everyone else was like, “Man, that was not…” I’m like, “That was an earthquake.” They’re like, “No, it wasn’t.” “Yes, it was. I lived in LA”

Heather E. Ash:
We had one in the Midwest. We had just moved back when my son was a baby, and we had moved to Chicago here. And at 4 AM, I knew what it was before I even woke up fully. ‘Cause I could hear the rattling and I thought, “Oh my god, that’s an earthquake.” And it was also snowing outside, and my husband at the time was like, “I’m not doing snow and earthquakes. No.”

David Read:
“Evidently, this morning, you are.”

Heather E. Ash:
I guess there’s a big fault line under St. Louis and New Madrid.

David Read:
Exactly, that’s why I wasn’t gonna move to Memphis. It’s one of the big reasons.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s true.

David Read:
That was not gonna happen.

Heather E. Ash:
You guys will get it too.

Heather E. Ash:
If we get it–

David Read:
Nashville will get hit. Nashville will feel it, no matter what. But I do have a few fan questions in the last few minutes that we have.

Heather E. Ash:
Yay! I wondered if anyone was watching.

David Read:
Absolutely. My apologies to everybody. We’re catching up.

Heather E. Ash:
Sorry, guys.

David Read:
Teresa Mc, “Heather, have you experienced writer’s block and what is your resolve for it? What is your solution to it?” Walk in the park, go pet a dog?

Heather E. Ash:
Oh, I don’t know. If I’m blocked on some … My big issue is always getting started. I need to get started, and I always forget that about an hour in, things will start to click. And I figured out, it’s been a long time coming. So, whatever it is that I’m writing, if I just write it like I’m writing an email. My best writing is retelling a story on Facebook to my friends. Like the time we almost killed our bird on my son’s birthday, clipping his nails. We put up crime scene tape, the random absurdity of life. And even I go back and read those, “Oh, that’s pretty good.” But letting characters talk and hearing what they have to say, and trusting in the process that– One of the side benefits of ADHD is that my mind will catastrophize and come up with all the things that could go wrong. And again, back to my therapist. But I had to explain that the bitch, this person who’s, “It’s all gotta go wrong,” that’s a working bitch. If she has a job, then that’s good. I need that. I can’t sideline her completely ’cause then I can’t do my writing. But she just can’t drive the car the whole time. Do what we gotta do.

David Read:
It’s like the personalities in Inside Out. There’s always one of them front and center before you go to work the next day or before you sit down and do something. “Oh, my god. I’ll never be able to do that again. It was a fluke. It was just a fluke that I’ve done it the last time. Oh, my god. I’ll never … Oh, OK. Maybe something else is working.”

Heather E. Ash:
And every writer that you talk to, there’s this myth that once you’re a successful writer, you never have that anymore. No. Every writer that I know thinks that the last time was a fluke. And that this time, really, they’re gonna be found out.

David Read:
Do you know what George R. R. Martin told Melinda Snodgrass?

Heather E. Ash:
No, but I love both those people.

David Read:
“Don’t hoard your silver bullet.”

Heather E. Ash:
So, put it out there at the beginning and trust that more will come?

David Read:
There will be more of them.

Heather E. Ash:
That makes sense.

David Read:
That’s a great anecdote.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes, it is.

David Read:
Absolutely. Peace Rider, “Was it always a painting scene in “Learning Curve” in your mind? The “paint me a flower,” and there are a lot of purple dogs in the end.” She said, “Thanks for this episode. It’s one of my three top favorites.” Mine too!

Heather E. Ash:
Yay! Thank you. That’s so nice. How cool is it that something I did, I wrote, is out there proverbially forever? Still making people happy.

David Read:
Transcends time.

Heather E. Ash:
It does. I am so thrilled by this.

David Read:
It’s magic.

Heather E. Ash:
How often do you get that opportunity?

David Read:
With Dial the Gate, I’m blessed too.

Heather E. Ash:
And you get to be the fan. And I’m a fan of other– I interviewed someone on Battlestar Galactica. And I was like, “I’m fangirling the heck out of this.”

David Read:
Who’d you interview?

Heather E. Ash:
I knew these people, all of ’em. Ron Moore and everybody… Jane Espenson.

David Read:
They’re good.

Heather E. Ash:
And it was for Written By, the Writer’s Guild magazine. But, oh my gosh, that was so much fun. So, the question was the painting–

David Read:
The painting scene.

Heather E. Ash:
That whole part of that episode was that O’Neill was really fixated on the idea that Marrin needed to have an actual childhood. You need to have creativity. You need to have this opportunity. And she didn’t–

David Read:
“Need to play ball. Play ball.”

Heather E. Ash:
But here’s the thing. Would I do that now? I think it’s a good theme to have. I think it came from a good place. In this time and place, knowing neurodiversity as I do, I think that it served its purpose. That was the purpose of the scene. And I think at the end, I cannot exactly remember early drafts. I know that there was more to the art scene that was ad-libbed by Rick, like “Purple dog. Dogs are my favorite people.” That was so wonderful. That was the scene that made me cry. I think O’Neill’s maybe, possibly a little misguided, and I think we did talk about that. As horrible as the outcome was in the end, if you’re coming from a certain culture, we tried to make it a little less awful, that this was a very honorable thing that these kids were doing and maybe their lives are not meant to have drawing flowers and playing ball.

David Read:
No, I really liked your original ending, and I’m glad that we got that out of you in the clarification of the fan questions at the end of the last one about, all Urrone children will now be taught the old-fashioned way. I really loved the idea, as a sci-fi idea, that “No, they can’t.” Their humanity has also been deleted. They are empty vessels now. They are vegetables, as O’Neill says. And I think if it were the show to be done now, I think they would have been bold enough to do that.

Heather E. Ash:
Totally dark.

David Read:
Because in the ’90s, you did wanna have more of these episodes [that] did have a button on the end of it, a nice little bow, as it were. And a lot of the later SG-1 episodes did not. Nukes, ravaged civilizations, all kinds of things. And I think that’s just the evolution of a show as well.

Heather E. Ash:
Absolutely. And the time. Is it so… I’m gonna argue here, not that I want my kids being in that situation, but your kids are the… You offer your child to serve this civilization. So, you’re gonna take in this knowledge, it’s gonna be disbursed to everybody, it’s important knowledge, it advances your society. A lot of places… Look at our military forces. People are sending themselves out to die. I have a nephew in the Navy. Everyone has gotta sacrifice something. So, she sacrifices herself, or her parents, and yet they get to live in comfort with all their needs met for the rest of their natural lives, is what we’re envisioning. And now they’re gonna color and play and do all these things?

David Read:
They possess the sum of her knowledge. So, her knowledge is a part of the society.

Heather E. Ash:
Ooh, that would’ve been cool as a sequel. Someone else coming back from the rest of the society going, “Marrin wanted to give you a little message, O’Neill.” “Ooh.” That would be the ghost episode.

David Read:
I love Robert Cooper. I love him. He and I have gotten to know each other through these interviews. There is one thing that I disagree with… there are a couple things that I disagree with him on. There is one thing that I really disagree with him on, and I would love to bandy that about with you, because it’s a theme in a lot of your work. He said to me, “I don’t like seeing children in jeopardy.”

Heather E. Ash:
That makes sense.

David Read:
“I don’t like doing that line. Child in trouble.” And I see where he’s coming from with that, because it can be used as a cheap trick to pull on the heartstrings of the audience.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s like fridging women as the motivation behind the detective.

David Read:
However, children in jeopardy is a natural part of our society, for better or for worse. And I think that fiction can confront us with it. What do you think?

Heather E. Ash:
I think you have to be extraordinarily selective. There are people who — this is a meme — they can’t watch a dog or even read about a dog being killed, but they’ll watch the true crime murderer marathon on television.

David Read:
Or the commercials with the dogs. The ASPCA. My mom can’t watch those.

Heather E. Ash:
No. I think I can’t do gratuitous violence against women anymore. I cannot. And after I had kids… Robert had his first, they had their first child toward, after I left, so it was 2000. I think he’s got four kids now. And I can see that when you’re a parent, things start to hit really close ’cause you’re already envisioning all the bad things that could happen. Or trying not to envision it. So, to have that in your face, I totally respect that. If he doesn’t wanna touch that, go for it. If he doesn’t wanna watch it, totally fine. Should it be a device that’s a cheap gimmick? No. Would I still do the episode, “Learning Curve” that I did? Sure, I would. And it might be a little bit deeper and a little bit more interesting doing it now as a parent than doing it as someone who wasn’t a parent, at the time, now that I have that perspective.

David Read:
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds did it a year or two ago.

Heather E. Ash:
Did they?

David Read:
Spoiler, but… “Oh yeah, this child is being ferried on the Enterprise. Oh yeah, they’re going to this thing, it’s gonna be great. Oh yeah, it’s terrific.” Last 10 minutes of the show, they’re turning him into a vegetable because his energy is gonna nourish a civilization.

Heather E. Ash:
They totally stole my plot.

David Read:
Totally did, except this is one child every few years. And there’s a power transference. Something special about this one.

Heather E. Ash:
Wait, there’s a classic sci-fi story, what’s it called? The Children of something. I was just reading this.

David Read:
Children of Men?

Heather E. Ash:
No.

David Read:
No. Childhood’s End?

Heather E. Ash:
Not a movie, a story.

David Read:
Childhood’s End.

Heather E. Ash:
A short story. No, it’s not Childhood’s End.

David Read:
Great book.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s something else. The Children of … Where is … Darn it, now I’ve got… Do you mind if I–

David Read:
Be my guest.

David Read:
Children of Time.

Heather E. Ash:
Children of something … where there is a utopian civilization. Sorry sci-fi fan.

David Read:
ChatGPT.

Heather E. Ash:
We don’t need the AI. Have one of your fans tell us.

David Read:
We don’t?

Heather E. Ash:
One of the fans knows this.

David Read:
They may be able to here. Anyone…

Heather E. Ash:
It was a short story.

David Read:
… pull this up, guys?

Heather E. Ash:
N. K. Jemisin did a version of it. So, people have done versions of it. A classic sci-fi story where there’s a utopian society where it is built on the suffering of one child, the awful, awful, awful, horrific suffering of one child. And the question is, is this OK for this one child, the most horrible of lives, in order for all the rest?

David Read:
The Ones Who Stay and Fight? N. K. Jemisin, that’s…

Heather E. Ash:
That’s her derivation.

David Read:
…her derivation. Interesting.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes. Of the original story. Someone in the fandom will know it and educate us. And then there was another story that I read. I read all of these on the same afternoon. So, I think especially when a story makes you very uncomfortable but it stays with you, this is the high, and we see it with this story, that I can’t remember the name of. It might be Ursula K. Le Guin. Is that how you pronounce it?

David Read:
The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas?

Heather E. Ash:
Yes.

David Read:
Ursula K. Le Guin’s own challenge to utopia, published in 1973.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes, a classic.

Heather E. Ash:
Child in danger, the ultimate child in danger. How do you let that happen? Do you have a choice? That’s horrid. But to grapple with these questions, I think, in a fictional way, makes us more interesting people.

David Read:
It’s good moral exercise as well. I think one of my favorite books, Ender’s Game, the way we win matters. The way we live matters.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes.

David Read:
How we treat the least among us.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes, and people seem to be forgetting that. In this day and age, and I think honestly this is why we have so much book banning, is people do not want to have others reminded of the basic humanity of everyone and the basic worth of everyone.

David Read:
Krisztian Unpronounceable, “Have you ever seen The Man from Earth?”

Heather E. Ash:
I don’t think I have.

David Read:
This is a great one. Philip K. Dick. I think it’s Phillip… Is it Philip K? No, I’m wrong. The Man from Earth, where is it? Jerome Bixby.

Heather E. Ash:
Am I seeing it or am I reading it?

David Read:
Yes, you’re gonna watch this. You will watch this.

Heather E. Ash:
You and what army?

David Read:
It’s got Tony Todd.

Heather E. Ash:
Oh, Tony Todd.

David Read:
John Billingsley, Ellen Crawford, Annika Peterson. It has a great cast. And the idea is that a professor is moving on because he says he has to move on every so often because people begin to recognize that he does not age. And he is actually a Cro-Magnon, so he says. And it is six or seven professors in a room by a fire discussing whether or not their colleague is crazy. And you find out by the end, one way or the other. And it is a great film.

Heather E. Ash:
Sounds like Highlander.

David Read:
These are important ideas that we grasp with because it allows us to invest ourselves in pursuing other modes of thought that would normally evade us.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes. And reading novels, television too. If you look at Will & Grace. It really did, because you’re inviting people into your living room. So, this is a very intimate medium that we have here, and that is more likely to change minds. Because you’re seeing these characters. Travelers, let’s bring it back. That helped bring about more acceptance of gay people. Which I think is also why people are trying to censor art in general. And books, when you’re reading books, I just read Jerry Craft’s The New Kid, which I thought was much more controversial than what I read. Which is basically a black kid who goes to a white private school, and he and another black student are talking about the microaggressions they’re experiencing there, and the perspective, which is fascinating, because as someone who’s white, I am not on the receiving end of that. Now, I grew up in Ferguson, Missouri, it’s worth noting. ‘Cause I was just back there. So, I do have a different upbringing than a lot of people. But still, I think it’s really interesting to read as widely as you can and from authors and artists that aren’t from your culture because you learn so many different things. And you get these perspectives. And it’s not representative of the whole culture, but still. It also tells you what not to do.

David Read:
I had Armin Shimerman on a few weeks or so ago. And after we got off the Zoom, the live chat, he and I were talking with Darren Sumner over at GateWorld, and he said, one of the quickest ways to drop any preconceived notions of someone else is to have a meal with them. And I’m thinking back to 2016’s Moonlight, great film.

Heather E. Ash:
Totally was something I was not expecting.

David Read:
So, good.

Heather E. Ash:
I was like, “I’m going to be depressed, aren’t I?” And no, I was not. I loved that movie so much, and Everything Everywhere All At Once. That movie just gets better every time I watch it.

David Read:
I’ve only seen it once. I need to watch it again ’cause it is–

Heather E. Ash:
It’s better the second time ’cause you see where they’re going.

David Read:
You see where they’re going, absolutely. With the family.

Heather E. Ash:
There’s so much out there that is so amazing. And again… Or even Crazy Rich Asians.

David Read:
Haven’t seen that one. That’s good?

Heather E. Ash:
Also very good. The book is different, but the mahjong scene at the end has another layer to it if you play mahjong or are from the culture.

David Read:
I’ve always wanted to learn how.

Heather E. Ash:
I didn’t either, but that game — and I think Michelle Yeoh asked for this to happen. It is very clear; if you play mahjong or you’re from the culture, you would understand the significance of the tiles that are being put down in that scene.

David Read:
So, it’s all deliberate.

Heather E. Ash:
We’re missing that layer. But that’s OK ’cause like I said last time, it’s not a movie that’s specifically speaking to me.

David Read:
And you can also go on YouTube and learn that. Someone’ll interpret it for you.

Heather E. Ash:
I just read an article–

David Read:
You’re not gonna catch that on your own.

Heather E. Ash:
So, that’s why. But the point being, people don’t wanna see that ’cause it’s not about me. Here’s the news flash, the media has been about a bunch of white guys forever, the classics and all this. And a lot of erasure has been done, and other people get it just fine. We absorb the dominant narrative, so maybe it’s time for other narratives to get in here. I think that makes us much more interesting.

David Read:
I would agree. Antony, “Are you currently working on anything that you can discuss?”

Heather E. Ash:
I have written a couple short stories. I think I am segueing into the horror sci-fi world. I should–

David Read:
What’s bringing that on, do you think? I’m curious.

Heather E. Ash:
Life.

David Read:
Because as I get older, I’m enjoying horror a little bit more too.

Heather E. Ash:
I discovered it …

David Read:
Not gore, but–

Heather E. Ash:
… during the pandemic. Not gore horror, but I was always dark. We talked about this. Walked Into the Room was nothing, no one expected what …

David Read:
But no torture porn.

Heather E. Ash:
… they were doing when I came in.

David Read:
Which is so…

Heather E. Ash:
It’s just lobotomization.

David Read:
Well, thinking about. Not watching it.

Heather E. Ash:
It’s implied. It’s implied lobotomization. I like the psychological, not too much psychological ’cause it makes me nervous, but just that whole, what happens if… The relationships again. The Last of Us is on HBO. I haven’t played the game.

David Read:
I haven’t watched it …

Heather E. Ash:
I haven’t watched it.

David Read:
… yet. I’m looking forward to it though. I know it’s good.

Heather E. Ash:
Makes me cry and there’s a standalone episode in there that got nominated for an Emmy.

David Read:
The Nick Offerman one?

Heather E. Ash:
Yeah. That one.

David Read:
He’s a good actor.

Heather E. Ash:
That is such great character work and I cry every time.

David Read:
I’m looking forward to that one. I’m looking forward to Fallout. Talk To Me was a great horror film. Also takes a turn with a young boy that I did not see coming, and that’s one where it’s, “Ooh, he stole that movie with one scene.” And it’s like, “Wow.” You can put kids in harm’s way and still feel something.

Heather E. Ash:
Totally. It Comes at Night was, I think, A24, and A24 …

David Read:
I haven’t seen that one.

Heather E. Ash:
… can get really weird. It’s on the Hulus or whatever. I turned it on one night going, “Who knows?” And it is a very small movie, very low budget, following a pandemic. This kid with his parents–

David Read:
I love the actor. Joel Edgerton.

Heather E. Ash:
The one who plays his son. Joel is kind of on the periphery but definitely from the son’s perspective.

David Read:
Andrew.

Heather E. Ash:
He’s a teenager. So well done. So, where do your loyalties lie during a pandemic? What happens? It’s a downer. It’s a horror film, but so well done. And it is–

David Read:
A24, every time I see the logo, it’s like, “Well, this is gonna be worth a look if nothing else.” I think in terms of production studios, I think I’ve seen more A24 films than any other.

Heather E. Ash:
True. Some of the stuff, I cannot even.

David Read:
It’s out there.

Heather E. Ash:
I cannot even. But the quiet character stuff. Such a huge fan of and I will, if you’ve got me roped in. So, I try to… I think that that’s something that’s always gonna be in my work. Getting it out there is, again, it’s business. And I gotta do the business, and it’s balancing that, and working, and there’s more money to be had in one kind of work than in the writing work.

David Read:
As long as you’re doing what you love.

Heather E. Ash:
We’ll see. And it’s a privilege to also love a lot of different things and be able to explore those things. And certainly, the narrative and the telling stories applies to my work. Now I’m an educational therapist, or going to be, rather than just a math tutor. But yes, making people not afraid of math, as we discussed before.

David Read:
We had that conversation, yes, absolutely.

Heather E. Ash:
I’ve committed to this.

David Read:
It was in you all along.

Heather E. Ash:
What?

David Read:
It was in you all along, you person.

Heather E. Ash:
It was in me all along. Once I learned that math wasn’t scary.

David Read:
I’m just saying in general. Not you specifically.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s also the go-with-the-flow thing, is being open to these new paths. Would I have predicted I would be here? No. Back when I was trying to, like, “Am I gonna leave at the end of this season? What should I do?” and watching anyone who’s had a kid go to college or been around high schoolers trying to pick the college that they’re gonna go to. This idea that there’s one outcome. There’s the perfect choice that they’re gonna make and then they’ll be set. And they have to make the perfect choice or they’re not gonna be happy. And you come back around, “Dude, chill out. The choice that you make, there will be other… It will work out.” And you just kinda have to be, “OK, here’s where we are. Maybe this will lead something good.”

David Read:
Simon Sinek tells a great story, he’s a motivational speaker. He’s checking in on people who have been at a job for six months. He goes and says to talk to them all individually. He talks to one person and he’s like, “How are things going?” They’re like, “I think I’m gonna quit.” He’s like, “Why?” And they said, “I’m not making an impact.” “You’ve been here six months.”

Heather E. Ash:
There is a very interesting Hidden Brain on NPR, Shankar Vedantam, I don’t know if you listen to him. Love this, social psychology. He was just talking about that phenomenon, where people are depressed but yet objectively everything is going great.

David Read:
Right! You’re at the bottom of a mountain, you have to climb the mountain.

Heather E. Ash:
But here was the thing, it’s not that people are dying and I have no money. You’re sitting there going, “My life is so great. Why am I so…”

David Read:
Depressed.

Heather E. Ash:
“…depressed?” And it’s not even depression because they don’t show symptoms of clinical depression, in terms of negative and positive. And there’s an explanation in this episode. Look it up, it was on a couple weeks ago.

David Read:
I may have to ask you to send it to me.

Heather E. Ash:
Malingering. So, it’s this idea that the problem is you’re not finding meaning. You’re not feeling like you’re making a contribution, that you have a purpose in what you are doing. Or you are not living your values, which is a big thing. And certainly, when I look back at the me who was in Vancouver, “If I quit that’s gonna happen.” Now, other Heather could still be in Canada. I could be a millionaire, never worry about… That would be cool, hopefully. I had kids, they weren’t the kids I have now. We’ve talked about this, my kids and I.

David Read:
If you had stayed on for Season Four.

Heather E. Ash:
And that would’ve been it so who knows? It could have ended up… But would I give up this now? And Dark Matter by Blake Crouch, which I think the book is phenomenal, not as big a fan of the TV show. But I love the book. Talk about this. It’s every life, every version of the universe, if you made a different choice would you have been unhappy? Probably. How are you gonna know anyway? So, I think what you’re talking about, being able to look around and going, “OK, objectively I should be happy, but why am I not?” Or me feeling like, “Well, I can’t walk away from writing, this is who I am.” But I’ll tell you, I found this way that I’m contributing to society in a different way. It’s one by one at this point. But I like to think that I’m creating scientists, I’m helping young people who maybe wouldn’t pursue science… ‘Cause I didn’t pursue science ’cause I was silly and thought I couldn’t do math.

David Read:
You’re inspiring the scientists.

Heather E. Ash:
That was part of what writing was too, I was like, “I’m gonna be a sci-fi writer and it’s just as good ’cause I can learn about all the science and write stories about it.” So, that’s why I think you need your artists too. Everyone feeds.

David Read:
It’s one of my favorite lines from You’ve Got Mail.

Heather E. Ash:
I’ve seen that.

David Read:
“Do I do what I do because I love it or because I haven’t been brave.” And that has always stuck with me. And I think these kids are thinking about that a lot, “Well, I’m not making an impact.” You’re not living your… You have to give things a chance.

Heather E. Ash:
Absolutely.

David Read:
It is possible that you’re not where you’re supposed to be. But six months? I don’t think that’s enough in most cases.

Heather E. Ash:
Although, I quit a job last year a month in ’cause there was too much bullshit happening.

David Read:
Sometimes you just know for sure.

Heather E. Ash:
And I’ve had the experience. I was in HR going, “You know what? I recognize this. I put up with a lot of this in Hollywood and I’m not gonna keep doing that.”

David Read:
“I’ve done this page of the book, I’m moving onto another chapter.”

Heather E. Ash:
Right. “This is not gonna end well for anybody if I stay here. And you’re not paying me enough to stay here. There are no benefits involved. So, no. I’m out.” And I miss the students, but I don’t miss the adults acting like high school students. I just had to take that leap. And it’s scary. Change is scary. No one likes change…

David Read:
Of course. Absolutely.

Heather E. Ash:
…at all. But if you even think in the micro. Am I making a difference today for someone else? Am I making… I tell my kids, “We were put here to make the light, make the world better for our having been here.” And that is your job.

David Read:
I totally agree with that.

Heather E. Ash:
That’s basically our family viewpoint. You are here to make a difference of some kind. And it doesn’t have to be world-changing.

David Read:
It doesn’t have to be a big thing.

Heather E. Ash:
No.

David Read:
I’ve always had that answer for the meaning of life, ever since I watched Season Three of SG-1… of TNG, that there’s an episode where Data has a daughter. And she asks, “What is my reason for being?” And I think Data gave the most succinct answer that anyone can leverage. “Our purpose is to contribute in a positive way to the world in which we live.” Full stop. That’s it. Anything else above that, it’s icing on the cake. But you have to find a way to do that.

Heather E. Ash:
And I think that makes… Empowerment makes people happy. And when you don’t feel empowered, you’re not going to be happy. Also easy for me to say. Some people are not as in charge of their circumstances as they would like to be. I also believe that if you are in a position of privilege that you are obligated to use that privilege on behalf of those who do not have it. Thus, the allyship that I try to practice. Which confuses the hell out of some of the people I went to school with, ’cause I got my rainbow, my Pride t-shirt on. They’re like, “Heather, so what’s happening?” Which I appreciate. They wanna be welcoming and, the whole me, but it’s like, “No, dudes. You’re a safe space for others. That’s it.”

David Read:
Will you submit for film and TV again? Or is that door closed?

Heather E. Ash:
I don’t see that door open, unless… The TV writers always joked before, and I think it’s still true, unless I write something that they adapt, someone buys to produce and then maybe I’ll write the script. I miss screenwriting. It was so easy.

David Read:
Really?

Heather E. Ash:
It was so easy, ’cause the voices are already talking in your head, and you don’t have to decide what people are wearing, and it is… People see that as a limitation. I saw it as, “I can do a lot of stuff with four act breaks and 43 pages.” That never intimidated me at all. So, anything else is harder to do. I’m getting… As I get less perfectionist, I’m getting a little better at it. But again, rewriting is a beautiful thing. And when you find the right critique people, I always enjoy getting critique back to make it better. That’s my happy spot.

David Read:
This has been such a treat for me to sit down…

Heather E. Ash:
Thank you.

David Read:
…and get to know you better.

Heather E. Ash:
Same here.

David Read:
And it means a lot to all of us to get a glimpse inside your brain. And inside your process.

Heather E. Ash:
Scary place that it is.

David Read:
But it’s not gonna be boring.

Heather E. Ash:
It will never be boring. Absolutely not.

David Read:
I made the comment one time about Richard Dean Anderson, and also about Jack O’Neill. Whatever is going on in that brain, I bet it’s animated.

Heather E. Ash:
In every sense of the word.

David Read:
But I mean, it is two-dimensional.

Heather E. Ash:
Well, two-dimensional but multiple layers of two-dimensional.

David Read:
That’s what I mean. If whatever’s going on in there, it is a cartoon first.

Heather E. Ash:
I’m just talking about the thousand tabs of cartoons that are open all at the same time.

David Read:
Oh, for sure. Most of them set in Springfield.

Heather E. Ash:
Yes.

David Read:
Thank you, Heather.

Heather E. Ash:
Thank you, David. Thank you, fans out there who stuck with us all this time. Did we get all their questions?

David Read:
Well, the only ones were… Casually Sandra, “What can you tell us about ‘Beneath the Surface’?” We covered that.

David Read:
Lockwatcher, “You created some of the most iconic lines, “Really jam it in there” and “Maybourne, you’re an idiot every day of the week.” Lockwatcher, go and watch the first episode, because we covered those details.

Heather E. Ash:
We did.

David Read:
And that was pretty much it.

Heather E. Ash:
Thank you. I’m so excited that people still have questions and still…

David Read:
There will always be questions.

Heather E. Ash:
…enjoy it.

David Read:
And as long as that’s the case, I believe there is hope for us. So, when the questions stop being asked…

Heather E. Ash:
Then we’re in…

David Read:
…we’re in serious trouble.

Heather E. Ash:
We’re in trouble.

David Read:
And people are just gonna start pushing things over just to see what will happen. Thank you, Heather.

Heather E. Ash:
All right. Thank you, David.

David Read:
I’m gonna wrap it up.

Heather E. Ash:
All right, wrap it up.

David Read:
Heather E. Ash, writer and story editor for Stargate SG-1. Really appreciated having her on and really appreciate my mods sticking it out for this one, and everyone who was tuned in to enjoy the show with us. If you enjoy Stargate and you wanna see more content like this available on YouTube, please hit Like. It does help the show and will continue to help us grow our audience. Please also consider sharing this video with a Stargate friend, and if you wanna get notified about future episodes, click Subscribe. Giving the bell icon a click will notify you the moment a new video drops and you’ll get my notifications of any last-minute guest changes. And clips from this live stream will be released over the course of the next few weeks on both the Dial the Gate and the GateWorld.net YouTube channels. We have quite a weekend heading your way, so be sure to tune in starting Saturday morning. We’re going to have Robert Moloney, who played Borren in SG-1, and Koracen in Atlantis. He’s live Saturday, June the 22nd at 10:00 in the morning, followed by Christina Cox at 12 noon Pacific Time, 3 PM Eastern. And a lot more heading your way, so be sure to check out DialtheGate.com for all those details. My thanks to my moderating team. Couldn’t do it without you guys. Antony and Marcia, you guys are the best. And everyone else involved with the show, you’ll see their names in the end credits. My name is David Read for Dial the Gate, and I’ll see you on the other side.